Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Ulmita]

I think you've misunderstood. Ofc this war is despicable and ofc Russia should withdraw troops and give back the land it has captured.

I am just pointing out, that this war we knew it would happen many many many years ago, and not only we didn't do anything to stop it, but rather we kinda helped it to take place.

[Gabriel]

I think you've misunderstood. Ofc this war is despicable and ofc Russia should withdraw troops and give back the land it has captured.

I am just pointing out, that this war we knew it would happen many many many years ago, and not only we didn't do anything to stop it, but rather we kinda helped it to take place.

Indeed. We should have kicked russia to the curb way way sooner.

[Saradain]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-matters-today

Russia even tried to avoid this war multiple times by getting NATO and the US to sign legal assurances in 2021

Your article is talking about the 90s.

Were these promises ever written down in a treaty?
No, largely because Bush felt Baker and Kohl had gone too far, or in Baker’s words he had “got a little forward on his skis”.

The final agreement signed by Russia and the west in September 1990 applied only to Germany. It allowed foreign-stationed Nato troops to cross the old cold war line marked by East Germany at the discretion of the German government. The agreement was contained in a signed addendum. Nato’s commitment to protect, enshrined in article 5, had for the first time moved east into former Russian-held territory.

That is from the article. Now, if you referring to legal assurances is about NATO promising not to expand (in 2021?)...It is no argument to begin with - NATO still remains a defensive alliance where members independently wish to join the organization to shield them from Russia's aggression.

As we could see already back in the Crimean invasion, it is clearly needed. No amount of NATO/West blaming can hide the facts here - Russia started this all, they will always solely be responsible.

Oh and also, any agreement with Russia is worthless because Russia NEVER keeps their word. Blaming boogieman West or Ukraine is utterly pointless.

[PhaelixWW]

Now, if you referring to legal assurances is about NATO promising not to expand (in 2021?)...It is no argument to begin with - NATO still remains a defensive alliance where members independently wish to join the organization to shield them from Russia's aggression.

"Your 'defensive alliance' is a slap in the face to our offensive country!"

...or something...

[Saradain]

"Your 'defensive alliance' is a slap in the face to our offensive country!"

...or something...

It really DOES suck in strategy games like Stellaris or Civilization series when I want that small rich piece of land but they have big friends with defensive pacts. Only difference is, when I hit doomsday weapon buttons, no actual people die...

It tells a lot when I, a random poster here on WoW-based forum, am equally capable leader as Vladimir "Putler" Putin.

I can almost feel Vlad's pain as a gamer who wants all the loot and riches but in real life it's not just that simple, can always start a new game if all the sanctions ruin your economy and send your shithole dictatorship to stone age. But alas, real life doesn't work like that...

[Ulmita]

"Your 'defensive alliance' is a slap in the face to our offensive country!"

...or something...

Please allow me to complete the "...or something..." part:

Our 'defensive alliance' was bombing Yugoslavia for 77 days, w/t any UNSC or UN approval or what so ever
Our 'defensive alliance' is compromised by countries that have bombed the sh*t out of middle east, Asia and Africa
Our 'defensive alliance' when asked by Russia to sign a paper that guarantees that in the Mark-41 VLS in Romania, no Tomahawks (which are nuclear capapble) will ever be installed, never agreed to.

So yeah...

[Marcellus1986]

Please allow me to complete the "...or something..." part:

Our 'defensive alliance' was bombing Yugoslavia for 77 days, w/t any UNSC or UN approval or what so ever
Our 'defensive alliance' is compromised by countries that have bombed the sh*t out of middle east, Asia and Africa
Our 'defensive alliance' when asked by Russia to sign a paper that guarantees that in the Mark-41 VLS in Romania, no Tomahawks (which are nuclear capapble) will ever be installed, never agreed to.

So yeah...

Nice whataboutisms Russian shill.

[Ulmita]

Nice whataboutisms Russian shill.

Not sure how to answer when someone lays down historical facts so I type whataboutism, russia, shill and life is good.

cool

[Pann]

Please allow me to complete the "...or something..." part:

Our 'defensive alliance' was bombing Yugoslavia for 77 days, w/t any UNSC or UN approval or what so ever
Our 'defensive alliance' is compromised by countries that have bombed the sh*t out of middle east, Asia and Africa
Our 'defensive alliance' when asked by Russia to sign a paper that guarantees that in the Mark-41 VLS in Romania, no Tomahawks (which are nuclear capapble) will ever be installed, never agreed to.

So yeah...

Our defensive alliance has sat back whilst you... sorry Russia... has poisoned people with radioactive material and nerve agents. We also sat back whilst you annexed part of a sovereign nation. Helped shootdown an airliner. Carried genocide in Syria and now Ukraine.

So yeah...

[Gabriel]

Please allow me to complete the "...or something..." part:

Our 'defensive alliance' was bombing Yugoslavia for 77 days, w/t any UNSC or UN approval or what so ever
Our 'defensive alliance' is compromised by countries that have bombed the sh*t out of middle east, Asia and Africa
Our 'defensive alliance' when asked by Russia to sign a paper that guarantees that in the Mark-41 VLS in Romania, no Tomahawks (which are nuclear capapble) will ever be installed, never agreed to.

So yeah...

Why should anyone make concessions to russia, when the only question we should ask ourselves, when russia gets uppity and flexes their shrivelled military penis outside their borders, is that are we going to bomb Moscow too, or just their expeditionary forces?

[Marcellus1986]

Not sure how to answer when someone lays down historical facts so I type whataboutism, russia, shill and life is good.

cool

You bringing up Kosovo, Libya or whatever else you are regurgitating is irrelevant to the thread and is just whataboutisms to deflect blame away from Russia, like you always do. Trying to make yourself appear neutral in every thread when anyone who has interacted with you over any period of time knows you throw out as much propaganda as Shalcker.

[Verdugo]

Not sure how to answer when someone lays down historical facts so I type whataboutism, russia, shill and life is good.

cool

"But they lynch blacks!"

[Flarelaine]

As it has been stated in numerous mod warnings, including one edited into the opening post, the topic of this thread is the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Must be surprising for a thread titled Russian invasion of Ukraine. Crazy, huh?

Whataboutism is still an effort to derail the thread. Cease and desist.

[Nymrohd]

As it has been stated in numerous mod warnings, including one edited into the opening post, the topic of this thread is the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Must be surprising for a thread titled Russian invasion of Ukraine. Crazy, huh?

Whataboutism is still an effort to derail the thread. Cease and desist.

I'd say that countering people who try to claim the moral high ground is not whataboutism. Personally I'd rather have pragmatism.

[Marcellus1986]

I'd say that countering people who try to claim the moral high ground is not whataboutism. Personally I'd rather have pragmatism.

Nothing Ulmita or any of these other Russian posters post is pragmatic at all. Most people who regularly posted in the old threads know how they operate.

[Iphie]

russia's emptying the bases around Finland

So it seems Finland is so much not a threat that russia can just leave the border defense with less men...

Early on we had already heard that several units had gone to fight in Ukraine but now it appears that also the last base is sending troops.

[Kaleredar]

russia's emptying the bases around Finland

So it seems Finland is so much not a threat that russia can just leave the border defense with less men...

Early on we had already heard that several units had gone to fight in Ukraine but now it appears that also the last base is sending troops.

A wry reading of that is that Finland’s pending inclusion to NATO also means that any Russian “just in case we want to…” invasion plans into finland are now basically gone as well, so there’s no reason for them to maintain any sort of real military presence there.

But in a more realistic sense, I think this qualifies as “scraping the bottom of the barrel”

[Shrouded]

russia's emptying the bases around Finland

So it seems Finland is so much not a threat that russia can just leave the border defense with less men...

Early on we had already heard that several units had gone to fight in Ukraine but now it appears that also the last base is sending troops.

I saw that and the first thing that came to mind was the board game Risk, even though I probably haven't played it in 15 years. The thing you do when you pull away every troop but one from a territory just because you need to win one particular fight, and you KNOW that it's going to come back and bite you in the butt later...

[Kaleredar]

Not sure how to answer when someone lays down historical facts so I type whataboutism, russia, shill and life is good.

cool

You don’t understand the situation here.

Russia is a rabid badger. I’m sure the rabid badger feels oppressed by the cage people have put it in, and feel that it should have some say on how many locks are put on its cage and that it should be able to determine if other people get put in cages.

But the rabid badger doesn’t understand the reason that it’s in a cage is because it’s rabid. It poses a clear and present danger. Nobody is trying to take its badger den away from it, they just don’t want it to go around biting others.


To wit, no one gives a fuck about Russia. Nobody wants to invade Russia. Hell, the rest of the world was content to let you sit by and watch you brutalize gay people in your country and assassinate politicians and journalists like a tin-pot dictatorship.

But Russia wasn’t content to just sit and rule over its little dystopia, probably because people catch wind that there are better places to live elsewhere and the rest of the world moves on regardless of whether Russia can keep up or not. So they started to try and take other countries down a peg by monkeying around in elections and supporting deleterious candidates and organizations to intentionally sow discord and confusion… not to make russia better, but to make others worse, so that the gap between Russia and them wasn’t so big.

But maybe that wasn’t working out as well as hoped, because when Russia pits itself against the world odds are the rest of the world is still going to pull out ahead. So Russia got keen on recreating their already failed state of the USSR, and lashed out at a sovereign nation that swung back on them and is desperately trying not to look like the pathetic dictatorship running on past glories that they are.


So into the cage you go.

[Iphie]

But in a more realistic sense, I think this qualifies as “scraping the bottom of the barrel”

Considering they're sending in artic fighting specialists I'd support that statement.

And Finland obviously has no plans of invasion so it's relatively safe, but still...