1. #2141
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I'm not denying the conflict hasn't displaced people.

    What I'm denying is:

    A) Your bullshit narrative is that they're fleeing "for fear of being victims of genocide by Ukraine" (a ridiculous assertion since Ukraine's current leader is literally a Russian speaker himself),
    B) That it's representative of a popular desire for independence to the point they'll fight to the death (another ridiculous assertion based on actually talking to the people living there who, again, mostly don't seem to give a shit) and,
    C) That this isn't the result of the Kremlin funding insurgents in the first place - namely to use the inevitable retaliation against said insurgency as an excuse to invade (i.e. exactly what Germany did with Poland) when we've known they've had designs on Ukraine for the past eight years.
    But the same can be said about USA and Kiev.

    You should understand, that it's the same crap, as with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. May be both parts of conflict are equally supported by USA and Russia. But difference is - real Russian population is involved this time.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-02-22 at 06:51 AM.

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  2. #2142
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    But the same can be said about USA and Kiev
    Already covered this moronic whataboutism in a previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Inb4 "but Euromaidan".

    I'ma ask the Putinistas the same question I pose to Republicans that criticise urban electorates for constantly voting Democrat even if said Democrats are kinda shitheads (see: Andrew Garcetti, Diane Feinstein, Jenny Durkan, etc.): Why, if NATO is so bad, why have y'all not been able to offer a sufficiently attractive alternative without resorting to force? Do you not realise how much of a self-own it is that as bad as you claim NATO is, y'all are the second choice unless people have a literal gun to their heads? Rofl.
    No, habibi, expressing support for a popular uprising against a corrupt Kremlin stooge to replace them with a democratically appointed replacement was not "the same thing" as funding paramilitary insurgents to justify an armed invasion in violation of like five separate agreements and international law.

    You should understand, that it's the same crap, as with Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.
    The only thing those three conflicts have in common is that the US was one of the main participants so trying to paint them as part of a trend related to Ukraine is beyond dishonest. You know, unless your comprehension of foreign policy is entirely a matter of "US bad". Which as I've said isn't a political position, it's resentment ideology.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2022-02-22 at 06:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #2143
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    what is the alternative at this point in time to you people? firing rockets into the region?
    I mean the US was involved in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych back 2014 starting this whole mess, but unless Ukraine specifically asks for military aid the official international response is all it really can be right now as there is no defensive pact with Ukraine.

  4. #2144
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Already covered this moronic whataboutism in a previous post:



    No, habibi, expressing support for a popular uprising against a corrupt Kremlin stooge to replace them with a democratically appointed replacement was not "the same thing" as funding paramilitary insurgents to justify an armed invasion in violation of like five separate agreements and international law.
    Why are you so sure, that USA doesn't fund anything like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The only thing those three conflicts have in common is that the US was one of the main participants so trying to paint them as part of a trend related to Ukraine is beyond dishonest. You know, unless your comprehension of foreign policy is entirely a matter of "US bad". Which as I've said isn't a political position, it's resentment ideology.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-02-22 at 07:00 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  5. #2145
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I mean the US was involved in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych back 2014 starting this whole mess, but unless Ukraine specifically asks for military aid the official international response is all it really can be right now as there is no defensive pact with Ukraine.
    so... what the fuck is Biden supposed to do?

  6. #2146
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Why are you so sure, that USA doesn't fund anything like that?
    A legal and over-the-table sale of arms between two sovereign polities is not the same as covertly supply insurgents for the purpose of instigating a conflict to undermine a sovereign polity, habibi.

    The US has done that in the past elsewhere, and it was shitty then. That isn't what's going on in Ukraine; it's literally just your Tsar being a narcissistic fascist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #2147
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No, habibi, expressing support for a popular uprising against a corrupt Kremlin stooge to replace them with a democratically appointed replacement was not "the same thing" as funding paramilitary insurgents to justify an armed invasion in violation of like five separate agreements and international law.



    The only thing those three conflicts have in common is that the US was one of the main participants, so trying to paint them as part of a trend related to Ukraine is beyond dishonest.
    There was nothing democratic about the replacement government after the euromaidan, it was handpicked by the US

  8. #2148
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I mean the US was involved in overthrowing Viktor Yanukovych back 2014
    "Verbally expressing support" is not the same thing as being "involved", but glad to know the right wing is freely repeating Putinista talking points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #2149
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    so... what the fuck is Biden supposed to do?
    Keep his mouth shut and let someone else mentally competent to deal with the press handle questions

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "Expressing support" is not the same thing as being "involved", but glad to know the right wing is freely repeating Putinista talking points.
    No we were pretty directly involved

  10. #2150
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    No we were pretty directly involved
    A snippet of a leaked conversation that is devoid of context is not evidence that the US instigated Euromaidan or 'handpicked' its leader. Nor, as I said, is it the same thing as funding and arming paramilitary insurgents.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2022-02-22 at 07:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #2151
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    A legal and over-the-table sale of arms between two sovereign polities is not the same as covertly supply insurgents for the purpose of instigating a conflict to undermine a sovereign polity, habibi.

    The US has done that in the past elsewhere, and it was shitty then. That isn't what's going on in Ukraine; it's literally just your Tsar being a narcissistic fascist.
    Do you really think, that Ukraine has money to pay for all that weapons instead of getting them as some sort of "credit" for being controlled by USA in a future?

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  12. #2152
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Keep his mouth shut and let someone else mentally competent to deal with the press handle questions
    Like your Führer Donald did? Priceless stuff coming from trumpkins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  13. #2153
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    A snippet of a leaked conversation that is devoid of context is not evidence that the US instigated Euromaidan or 'handpicked' its leader. Nor, as I said, is it the same thing as funding and arming paramilitary insurgents.
    It's same thing, as in Syria. It's president was chosen via democratic voting, i.e. by majority of citizens. Why he should have been replaced? This is how "real" democracy works?

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  14. #2154
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Do you really think, that Ukraine has money to pay for all that weapons instead of getting them as some sort of "credit" for being controlled by USA in a future?
    Remind me where soft power is the same thing as violating a country's sovereignty by instigating armed insurgency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #2155
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Remind me where soft power is the same thing as violating a country's sovereignty by instigating armed insurgency.
    Do you have any proves, that anything was done violently and not voluntary?

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  16. #2156
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    A snippet of a leaked conversation that is devoid of context is not evidence that the US instigated Euromaidan or 'handpicked' its leader.

    Nor, as I said, is it the same thing as funding and arming paramilitary insurgents.
    I said involved not instigated. There’s no evidence of that that I’ve seen. We were however interviewing candidates for prime minister and president as well I believe. You know to make sure they were our guys instead of Russia’s. Funny how it was after Nuland became re-involved in the State department under Biden (left under Trump) that Russia pulls this move instead of at any other time in the last 8 years.

    I’m not saying Russia’s motives are pure here, but Ukraine has been the most recent proxy war between US and Russia ever since it expressed a desire to join NATO in 2009.

  17. #2157
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's same thing, as in Syria. It's president was chosen via democratic voting, i.e. by majority of citizens.
    Who then decided to toss him out after realising he was a fascist scumbag that enjoyed gassing people. Or are you forgetting that it there was a Civil War going on and that the Obama administration was criticised for being slow to respond to it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #2158
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Like your Führer Donald did? Priceless stuff coming from trumpkins.
    Pretty sure I said Trump should keep his mouth shut as well. Multiple times. Dig through my post history if you want, it’s in there.

  19. #2159
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I said involved not instigated. There’s no evidence of that that I’ve seen. We were however interviewing candidates for prime minister and president as well I believe. You know to makes sure they were our guys instead of Russia’s.
    "Vetting" is not "handpicking", especially considering the context of Yanukovych being thrown out precisely because he was a Russian stooge.

    Funny how it was after Nuland became re-involved in the State department under Biden (left under Trump) that Russia pulls this move instead of at any other in the last 8 years.
    1) Syria was happening during Obama's second term and Russia was busy pouring money into that particular pit.
    2) Putain had a personal cocksleeve in office during the period between the Obama and Biden administrations that was undermining NATO well enough on his own.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2022-02-22 at 07:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #2160
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    NATO is no worry at all when it comes to neighbour country.
    Even discounting the cases of Irak and Afghanistan, NATO's historical interactions with its neighbors Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria might lead one to think otherwise.
    "It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Ethics for Tomorrow"

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