Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Verdugo]

Sure, but you might want to read up on AZOV as well as what happened to russian citizens in Ukraine a few years ago.
If you need any more history lessons let me know.

We are not interested in russian fairy tales.

[Saradain]

Posting conspiracy theories is not allowed on this forum.

Why are you posting then?

So if the battleship Moscow actually did get shot down by Ukraine, how come every single member of the 500 crew was not even scratched?

He's right. There's a propaganda war from both sides.
The only difference is you're on the west side, listening to western propaganda.

Jesus, open your fucking eyes people, anti-Russian propaganda is being ran by western media for decades, regardless if there's a conflict or not.

People are being mislead that Ukraine is winning because Russia isn't going full out with the invasion. As I mentioned before, they are not targeting civilians.
Putin went too far, but he's not a murdering maniac the west makes him out to be. Just because you live in the west doesn't mean you're being fed propaganda. Western propaganda machine is very active. Don't deceive yourself thinking that the west is good and the east is bad. They just might all be bad.

I'm going to tell you one thing. Russians are Orthodox and Ukraininans are Orthodox. That's a way bigger deal than you might think. The only people in danger is the government and the nazi Azov regiment.

Do you really think there is any way Ukraine is going to win this conflict?
Any way at all?
There is literally no scenario where Ukraine comes out of this winning. None.

Vietnam was a proxy war. Just like Syria.
This is not. This is not even a war. This is an invasion. Russia is NOT targeting civilians, but when you bomb something, innocent people tend to die.
It sucks, but I repeat, Russia is NOT targeting civilians at all.

Some of my more open friends from Sweden with no connection to either countries switched from supporting Ukraine to supporting Russia.
My Russian friends were VERY careful when I asked them about what they think about the invasion, but when they noticed that I'm not against Russia or Ukraine, they really opened up how the west kept quiet when thousands of russians were targeted and killed in Ukraine. Which is not really media propaganda.

People need to understand that there is no innocent government here on either side. Only innocent civilians.
Zelenskyj is a comedian first, president second and Klitschko got hit in the head a bit too many times.
I feel that Putin went too far though, but I also hear that the orders are not to touch the civilians. Yes there are civilian deaths, but I don't see how you can avoid that in a military conflict.

Then in a way, I am. But being Slavic myself, I disagree with Slavs going against Slavs.
But I don't see this confict as Russian people attacking Ukraine people. It's not a genocide.

Russia has a long history with the west. By allowing NATO in Ukraine is literally this scenario:
Your neighbor installs missiles in his backyward aiming towards you.
Meanwhile your neighbor doesn't care about his backyard and is instead living on the other side of the town.
Yeah I'd be fucking upset too.

Are you kidding me? NATO is a threat to everyone that's not a part of it.
It's literally a coalition of capitalist countries ready to go to war.

Pretty sure I understand war better than you do as I've survived one.
Men 18-60 are forbidden to leave the country and the Ukraine president has said that everyone who can wield a weapon should pick one up.
That includes children. That's a madman right there. Desperate madman.
I echo what I've been saying, the west doesn't care about Ukraine. Russia will roll over it and people will die. What does Ukraine president want? (children) Martyrs?

And there's plenty of more, but you simply post so much of conspiracy theories and whataboutism yourself and entirely off-topic replies in this thread that I possibly cannot include them all.

See you later when the memory of your posting history in this thread fades and you'll return with more pearls of your divine wisdom until driven off again.

Posting conspiracy theories is not allowed on this forum.

[jonnysensible]

Sure, but you might want to read up on AZOV as well as what happened to russian citizens in Ukraine a few years ago.
If you need any more history lessons let me know.

yea i know about azov https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/azov/

'what happened to russian citizens'? feel free to give the lesson

[Flarelaine]

A person shall not be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality. Such an ultimatum would, I am pretty sure, be illegal.

Quite a lot of countries disallow dual citizenship. Ukraine could simply join them. At that point, taking Ukrainian citizenship or retaining the Russian one would simply become a choice for those involved. Obviously not without consequences either way.

[Iphie]

The Mariupol theater blew itself up, no really!

I'm amazed by the audacity of this claim, do they really think anyone believes this? (the news site i got the original from is in Finnish and the headline was that it blew itself up.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Quite a lot of countries disallow dual citizenship. Ukraine could simply join them. At that point, taking Ukrainian citizenship or retaining the Russian one would simply become a choice for those involved. Obviously not without consequences either way.

AFAIK Ukraine didn't have dual citizenship already. A friend had to renounce his Ukrainian's when he got naturalized German a few years ago. And conversely former Georgian president Saakashvili had to renounce his Georgian nationality when he was appointed governor of Odessa.

Edit : seems that its only very recently that Zelensky signed a law allowing it.

[Iphie]

AFAIK Ukraine didn't have dual citizenship already. A friend had to renounce his Ukrainian's when he got naturalized German a few years ago. And conversely former Georgian president Saakashvili had to renounce his Georgian nationality when he was appointed governor of Odessa.

Edit : seems that its only very recently that Zelensky signed a law allowing it.

That could also be the Germans not allowing it though because Ukraine isn't an EU country. For example I'm not allowed to have dual citizenship by the Netherlands, UNLESS I take on the citizenship of my EU spouse. So I can't become US/NL, but I can become NL/SU. If you are born to parents of different nationalities then that is allowed in the Netherlands as well as when you are born in a country that practices Jus Soli

[Strawberry]

yea i know about azov https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/azov/

'what happened to russian citizens'? feel free to give the lesson

Good, now Google what happened to Russian civilians in 2014 in the eastern Ukraine.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are you posting then?



















And there's plenty of more, but you simply post so much of conspiracy theories and whataboutism yourself and entirely off-topic replies in this thread that I possibly cannot include them all.

See you later when the memory of your posting history in this thread fades and you'll return with more pearls of your divine wisdom until driven off again.

Posting conspiracy theories is not allowed on this forum.

And I got infracted and banned for a ton of my posts.
Your point besides wasting probably an hour or so to dig through my posts?
I'm impressed. Also get a life.

[Saradain]

And I got infracted and banned for a ton of my posts.
Your point besides wasting probably an hour or so to dig through my posts?
I'm impressed. Also get a life.

A life dismissing Russian apologists and shills is a life worth living for. In essence, you have been wrong at every turn and trying to deflect the discussion at hand into whataboutism.

Oh, I googled for Jonny. First two results with search terms of "what happened to russian citizens in eastern Ukraine in 2014"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_p...est_in_Ukraine

From the end of February 2014, demonstrations by pro-Russian and anti-government groups took place in major cities across the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, in the aftermath of the Euromaidan movement and the Revolution of Dignity. This unrest, fomented by Russia as part of a co-ordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ukraine-crisis

Good thing we're on the same side here eh?

Or did you mean something else? Why can't you teach us that lesson in history that you claimed you could? Afraid of posting a conspiracy theory that gets you infracted again?

Are you asking people to Google in hopes of them landing into Kremlin-approved articles so you have the tiniest chance of pretending to be right?

Right-o, the most important question: my point?

Your posting history in this thread has been, by far, false in all of its entirety - and you come here and tell people to stop posting conspiracies when you are yourself guilty of trying to spread pro-russian sentiments and covering their war crimey tracks in a manner similar to Kremlin - lies so grand that no one sane would believe them - at least until one is bombarded with said grand lies for decades. Which, thankfully, you are incapable of because people here know your posting motives.

And you said it yourself, you have been infracted and banned for them. What makes you believe that people should take you and your pro-russian deflection, whataboutism and conspiracies seriously?

[Voidism]

Russia appears to have shot down another of their jets - an SU-35. Thats 2 in two days now. This one was over Kherson.

Speaking of Kherson, Ukraine struck one of the two bridges that cross the Dnipro. Russians claims are Ukraine fired 6 HIMARs at it, they shot down 5 - and 4 hit the bridge. Russian no good at maths. But it looks like artillery hit it, not HIMARs. Which means Ukraine really are closing in.

It takes a lot to take down a bridge though. If they can take down the bridges, then the Russians on the other side are stuffed. It could be trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Kherson before they get cut off.

Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.

[Iphie]

Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.

1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.
2. Forcing a mass surrender would be a big blow to russian morale so it's not impossible as a tactic. (today the russian authorities in Kherson closed the bridge for traffic so who knows, it might work.)

[Voidism]

1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.
2. Forcing a mass surrender would be a big blow to russian morale so it's not impossible as a tactic. (today the russian authorities in Kherson closed the bridge for traffic so who knows, it might work.)

Mass surrender, or... uh... mass unmaking.

[Iphie]

Mass surrender, or... uh... mass unmaking.

Mass unaliving isn't a great idea. For various reasons, not in the least the Geneva convention.

[Azadina]

Mass unaliving isn't a great idea. For various reasons, not in the least the Geneva convention.

Would that be the one that RuZZlamists have for all intents and purposes renounced? If they do not feel bound by it, they should not enjoy any benefits from it.

If one acts like rogue state terrorist, why should others not treat the person as such?

[jonnysensible]

Good, now Google what happened to Russian civilians in 2014 in the eastern Ukraine.

do you mean ukranian citizens?

Russia invaded, killed ukranian soldiers and citizens, installed a puppet regime and then there was trench warfare with ceasefire every over week. The puppet regime disappeared people, but them in cellars and tortured and executed them. (famously a few journalists)

the fighting killed 800 odd people early on but for the last 4 years its killed on average 25 people a year?

25 ukranian people not russians.

I still don't get your point.

lavrov today said - 'RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE IS AIMED AT THE TERRITORIAL EXPANSION OF RUSSIA'

all russian invaders in ukraine must die. NATO should get involved, russia has provoked us too far imo.

[Mihalik]

Would that be the one that RuZZlamists have for all intents and purposes renounced? If they do not feel bound by it, they should not enjoy any benefits from it.

If one acts like rogue state terrorist, why should others not treat the person as such?

One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

This applies here too.

Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.

[Shrouded]

1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.

Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?

[Iphie]

Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?

Well...yes...but if they have I'm pretty sure it would be faulty.

[Azadina]

One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

This applies here too.

Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.

Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"

[Kallisto]

Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?

I think that was Wagner that were using car GPS simply because they didn't trust the Russian own version of it.