Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Lahis]

This has to be some kind of record. Russian signs up and 3 days later is dead in Ukraine. No training, just shipped straight to the front only to catch an artillery round.

The reason was even dumber.

He already had a job, so didn't need to go for the money. Just wanted to look like a manly man to try and impress someone who didn't care.

Well he was a reservist, so he has had some training at some point.

But still, sending them straight to the grinder with no refreshing is telling.

[Cynep]

You are, of course, correct. There is no great choice. But I do think that out of those two NOT turning genocidal is the best, also because of you don't want the invader to point to your behaviour and say: "see?". (And believe me, I'm no friend of russia.)

I'm not advocating genocide, but it's happening right now. The dilemma is between having the invader say "see?" and having the invader say "OK weakling, now I'm taking more." - which is exactly what happened in 2022 after Russia seeing the 2014's response. For you, giving in is superior, "not great not terrible", for me encouraging evil to do more evil is equally horrible to fighting evil with evil. Both have equal amount of evil.

Here's a thought experiment to help you see the other side's problem: let's imagine that in 2014 Russia invaded Finland instead of Ukraine. Silly but not impossible, Finland wasn't in NATO in 2014. So, Finns fight and stop Russians after losing 50000 square kilometers of land, including the place where you personally live (to help you feel what I feel). Now, after ethnically cleansing the conquered part, Russians come in 2022 for more of the land that historically belongs to Russian Empire (like Ukraine), and someone says: "Helsinki is thoroughly russified after 8+ years, just like Viipuri earlier; oh well. Taking it back now is pointless, we can't turn genocidal on Russian settlers". What do you think Finns would think about that, would they view the morally superior choice as clearly "the best", or just as equally bad?

[Iphie]

I'm not advocating genocide, but it's happening right now. The dilemma is between having the invader say "see?" and having the invader say "OK weakling, now I'm taking more." - which is exactly what happened in 2022 after Russia seeing the 2014's response. For you, giving in is superior, "not great not terrible", for me encouraging evil to do more evil is equally horrible to fighting evil with evil. Both have equal amount of evil.

Here's a thought experiment to help you see the other side's problem: let's imagine that in 2014 Russia invaded Finland instead of Ukraine. Silly but not impossible, Finland wasn't in NATO in 2014. So, Finns fight and stop Russians after losing 50000 square kilometers of land, including the place where you personally live (to help you feel what I feel). Now, after ethnically cleansing the conquered part, Russians come in 2022 for more of the land that historically belongs to Russian Empire (like Ukraine), and someone says: "Helsinki is thoroughly russified after 8+ years, just like Viipuri earlier; oh well. Taking it back now is pointless, we can't turn genocidal on Russian settlers". What do you think Finns would think about that, would they view the morally superior choice as clearly "the best", or just as equally bad?

I'm not Finnish so I do have a slightly more distant view on the matter, I did, however already live in Finland in 2014. The scenario you paint would certainly make any Finn's blood boil, so yes, they would defintely feel it was equally bad. But I'm not sure they'd go genocidal. (He said and he knows full well there are VERY reasonable Finns who have expressed some VERY unreasonable sentiments.)

The problem, as you say, is that there is no good solution, other than a voluntary vacating of the area by the invader and sympathizers. (which we know is a tall order.)

I cannot imagine how it is to live through this and I hope I'll never have to. So stay safe and out of sight.

[Gabriel]

We wouldn't exterminate anyone, but we sure as shit would deport every single one we could get our hands on.

[Mazza]

Only hours after reaching a deal that allows wheat exports out of Odessa in an attempt to avoid massive famine Russia attacks the Odessa harbor with cruise missiles.

[zealo]

Only hours after reaching a deal that allows wheat exports out of Odessa in an attempt to avoid massive famine Russia attacks the Odessa harbor with cruise missiles.

The fascists in charge of Russia are deliberately attempting to show the world that their words aren't worth the paper they're written on.

[jonnysensible]

no point negotiating with nihilists

[Gorsameth]

Only hours after reaching a deal that allows wheat exports out of Odessa in an attempt to avoid massive famine Russia attacks the Odessa harbor with cruise missiles.

Is anyone actually surprised at this?

Seriously they have bombed refugee corridors in the past. It would have been more surprising if it hadn't happened.

[Iphie]

Only hours after reaching a deal that allows wheat exports out of Odessa in an attempt to avoid massive famine Russia attacks the Odessa harbor with cruise missiles.

Remember that it took several days for them to actually start moving after they announced the withdrawal from Kyiv, it takes time for orders to reach the frontlines and be verified. If they continue then action should be undertaken, but if it's an incident then it should be treated as such.

[Belize]

Remember that it took several days for them to actually start moving after they announced the withdrawal from Kyiv, it takes time for orders to reach the frontlines and be verified. If they continue then action should be undertaken, but if it's an incident then it should be treated as such.

Mobilizing a whole front and simply not pressing the "launch missile" button isn't really the same thing. This isn't 1945 where you have to drive a letter to your general.

[Iphie]

Mobilizing a whole front and simply not pressing the "launch missile" button isn't really the same thing.

I agree, but the russian army isn't know for it's flexibility in the lower ranks, they do as they are told, when they are told, unless orders come to counter those. So even if there's an agreement then they still need to get the orders to the frontline.

This isn't 1945 where you have to drive a letter to your general.

I'd frankly not be surprised if the russians still worked like that...

[Gabriel]

Only hours after reaching a deal that allows wheat exports out of Odessa in an attempt to avoid massive famine Russia attacks the Odessa harbor with cruise missiles.

Like I said before: if you get backstabbed by russians, it was your fault for giving them the opportunity to do so.

[zealo]

Mobilizing a whole front and simply not pressing the "launch missile" button isn't really the same thing. This isn't 1945 where you have to drive a letter to your general.

Given how close to the front Russian generals appears to have to be in order to get things to move along, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some sizeable delay in orders getting disseminated down through the ranks.

[Vakna]

Russian ministry "We had nothing to do with the missile attack on Odessa port".

Right, because there is totally another armed force attacking Ukraine right now.

[Iphie]

Russian ministry "We had nothing to do with the missile attack on Odessa port".

Right, because there is totally another armed force attacking Ukraine right now.

That's...implausible to say the least. Not even if we accept that Wagner is separate would it be believable.

Somebody on another forum said it couldn't be them as no civilian casualties have been reported and I'm almost willing to accept that as a solid argument...

[Ripster42]

That's...implausible to say the least. Not even if we accept that Wagner is separate would it be believable.

Because the argument goes that they're paying wagner to be there? They're still responsible for their mercenaries.

[Poopymonster]

Because the argument goes that they're paying wagner to be there? They're still responsible for their mercenaries.

Today, we filed the paperwork to have those who fired the shots dismissed from the Russian Military effective 4 days ago.
Our people didn't do it.

[jonnysensible]

This has to be some kind of record. Russian signs up and 3 days later is dead in Ukraine. No training, just shipped straight to the front only to catch an artillery round.

The reason was even dumber.

He already had a job, so didn't need to go for the money. Just wanted to look like a manly man to try and impress someone who didn't care.

cucked by artillery

[Yunru]

20 barrels of honey for 4 drones seems like a realy bad deal.

If its araund 160 liters of honey per barrel, that is 3200 liters of honey. 1 liter of honey is araund 25 euro so ... 80.000 euro.
So the guy paid 20.000 euro per drone ....
One drone to be good for military use costs 1,349.90€. He could get 59 dones for that money.

Russans are realy bad at economics..

[Iphie]

Russans are realy bad at economics..

That, or the seller knows they're desperate.