1. #22001
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I went from being neutral about NATO to being pro-NATO. My change in opinion had a lot to do with these recent years of Russian aggression, and standing in solidarity with Finland (enabling NATO to supply/support Finland through Sweden).
    Having lived in the Netherlands for 33 years before moving to Finland 11.5 years ago I've always had a positive view of NATO, this has not changed, even if I didn't see the need lately but hey, things change quickly...just like I used to be against civilian possession of guns, the last few years have nuanced that view. Funny that...
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-06-28 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #22002
    Is it odd the first thing I wanted to do once seeing the Nato news for Sweden and Finland is check out the Darth Putin twitter page....

  3. #22003
    Putin is the best salesman of the year. Normally you would not convince Finland and Sweden but here were are, they applied themselves. /roflclap

  4. #22004
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    Is it odd the first thing I wanted to do once seeing the Nato news for Sweden and Finland is check out the Darth Putin twitter page....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    Putin is the best salesman of the year. Normally you would not convince Finland and Sweden but here were are, they applied themselves. /roflclap
    Two birds, one stone tweet...
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  5. #22005
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Turkey now supports Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO.
    Glad they managed to resolve it. I'm sure Turkey enjoyed their time in the limelight, but being the odd one out on a matter like this isn't to your benefit on the long run.

  6. #22006
    Quote Originally Posted by Liftbrul View Post
    Glad they managed to resolve it. I'm sure Turkey enjoyed their time in the limelight, but being the odd one out on a matter like this isn't to your benefit on the long run.
    Turkey got the concession it wanted so I'm not sure they care.

    And speaking of own goals from Putin, NATO is expanding its readiness force from 40000 currently to 300,000 troops.

  7. #22007
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Turkey got the concession it wanted so I'm not sure they care.

    And speaking of own goals from Putin, NATO is expanding its readiness force from 40000 currently to 300,000 troops.
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nato-n...0said%20Monday.

    Yeah. I wonder what that means. The planes haven't kicked up none-stop flights to the base near me as they did during Desert Storm.

  8. #22008
    It hasn't happened yet - it is just what they are planning on doing.

    Also, BoJo has accused Putin of toxic masculinity, saying a woman would never have started the war. I mean, he isn't exactly wrong, its just kind of ironic that BoJo was the one saying it. Russia runs on toxic masculinity, which is why the far right elements in the west tend to love Putin and Russia.

  9. #22009
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    What did Erdoan get in the trade?
    Pretty much everything they wanted.

  10. #22010
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Pretty much everything they wanted.
    Just the other way around, they barely got anything except in the case of arms exports. Now that I've gotten a change to digest the list a bit and read the analysis from smarter people than me, it sure seems like every single point is stuff Sweden and Finland were already doing. Even the sorest point, the extraditions, did not boil down to any extraditions actually happening, just reassurances that the extradition requests would be processed promptly.

    Now, if the question is if Erdogan got what he really wanted, which was to pave the way for weapon imports and to make himself look important, then yes, I'd agree.

  11. #22011
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Just the other way around, they barely got anything except in the case of arms exports. Now that I've gotten a change to digest the list a bit and read the analysis from smarter people than me, it sure seems like every single point is stuff Sweden and Finland were already doing. Even the sorest point, the extraditions, did not boil down to any extraditions actually happening, just reassurances that the extradition requests would be processed promptly.

    Now, if the question is if Erdogan got what he really wanted, which was to pave the way for weapon imports and to make himself look important, then yes, I'd agree.
    They also got a OK to get F-16 which the USA did not want initially because they did not want a country with both F-16 and S-400 which would allow them to do exercices and testing with both system (and potentially communicate the results to Russia). Obviously, the Greek are not too happy about it as well.

  12. #22012
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Just the other way around, they barely got anything except in the case of arms exports. Now that I've gotten a change to digest the list a bit and read the analysis from smarter people than me, it sure seems like every single point is stuff Sweden and Finland were already doing. Even the sorest point, the extraditions, did not boil down to any extraditions actually happening, just reassurances that the extradition requests would be processed promptly.

    Now, if the question is if Erdogan got what he really wanted, which was to pave the way for weapon imports and to make himself look important, then yes, I'd agree.
    Regarding those extradition requests, my understanding is that Finland had received 10 in the last few years and granted 2 out of three that have been processed and was still processing the remaining 7 so even that shouldn't have been a big issue. It kinda feels Finland got caught in the crossfire between Sweden and Turkey.

  13. #22013
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Regarding those extradition requests, my understanding is that Finland had received 10 in the last few years and granted 2 out of three that have been processed and was still processing the remaining 7 so even that shouldn't have been a big issue. It kinda feels Finland got caught in the crossfire between Sweden and Turkey.
    Yes I think you're absolutely right about that. And even so, Sweden has extradited people to Turkey as well, so it is not as if either country is averse to doing so. This had more to do with both Finland and Sweden having higher burdens of proof of wrong-doing before extradition than Erdogan would like, I think.

  14. #22014
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Seems a compromise will be found for Kaliningrad.

    Not entirely surprising, but still slightly disappointing. I suppose the EU and NATO don't want to risk anything right now. We'll see how it pans out.

  15. #22015
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Yes I think you're absolutely right about that. And even so, Sweden has extradited people to Turkey as well, so it is not as if either country is averse to doing so. This had more to do with both Finland and Sweden having higher burdens of proof of wrong-doing before extradition than Erdogan would like, I think.
    Pretty much. When they bring a good case, we extradite, but they never do. They don't have much proof of anything and as long as the only thing these "terrorists" have done wrong is to be Kurdish, pro-Kurdish, or in other ways simply a dissident, then they'll have no luck.

    At one point they even wanted us to extradite a man who has been dead for years, so they should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Generally speaking, the deal doesn't change a whole lot. It's mostly clarifications of things that were already in place or on the way, except for the weapons embargo being lifted. But that doesn't really change much either.

  16. #22016
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Seems a compromise will be found for Kaliningrad.

    Not entirely surprising, but still slightly disappointing. I suppose the EU and NATO don't want to risk anything right now. We'll see how it pans out.
    Might have struck a “keep the gas flowing and we’ll open” deal.

    Either way, it’s not something that did any major harm on Russia as a whole. I guess they for a smell of how “loosing land” feels like.

  17. #22017
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I went from being neutral about NATO to being pro-NATO. My change in opinion had a lot to do with these recent years of Russian aggression, and standing in solidarity with Finland (enabling NATO to supply/support Finland through Sweden).
    Pretty much the same for me.

  18. #22018
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Just the other way around, they barely got anything except in the case of arms exports. Now that I've gotten a change to digest the list a bit and read the analysis from smarter people than me, it sure seems like every single point is stuff Sweden and Finland were already doing. Even the sorest point, the extraditions, did not boil down to any extraditions actually happening, just reassurances that the extradition requests would be processed promptly.

    Now, if the question is if Erdogan got what he really wanted, which was to pave the way for weapon imports and to make himself look important, then yes, I'd agree.
    Erdogan got to show Russia that the other countries in NATO at least will listen to what he says and wants and Turkey is not some red-headed step child of NATO. That's bigger than really anything else.

  19. #22019
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    As far as I understood the domestic claim by Turkey that Sweden/Finland will extradite (almost exclusively nationl citizens) is being questioned by Turkish media from all directions. Wether it be segments of the political spectrum totally agaisnt being in NATO at all to thinking NATO shouldnt expand.
    And its quite from the swedish and finnish officials.

    I have yet to know exactly what the deal is all about apart from the easy stuff like lifting bans on selling the turkish nutcases weapons and the US deal to provide spare parts for F-16's etc.
    Turkey knows it is out of the question to extradite citizens even if we disregard that Turkey view the political wing as a terrorist organization when neither EU, US does.

    Apart from not extraditing citizens the fact is, no swede or finn will sacrfice a NATO membership cos of the Kurdish situation not matter how just they might be.
    It would make no sense no matter how much of a shitty pseudo dictatorship Turkey is to sit on high horses when its about self preservation against facist Russia.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-06-30 at 01:08 AM.
    Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site.

  20. #22020
    Russia have abandoned snake Island. They claim they have finished their tasks there and this is a gesture of goodwill to show they aren't blocking Ukrainian grain exports. The reality is they were getting hammered there repeatedly for no gain.

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