1. #22001
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    And your solution ends humanity. The fate of nearly 8 billion people is far more important than the fate of 40millionish people.
    And again, approach like this is why Russia has still any pull in todays world. "Aw damn, better not help too much countries Russia attacks, they have n00kz". But guess what? Their threats are empty and desperate. Finland/Sweden will join NATO, and what is Russia going to do? Nothing. Embargos come in left and right, choking ruskies, and what are they going to do? Nothing.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-07-30 at 05:49 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  2. #22002
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    But guess what? Their threats are empty and desperate.
    wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?

    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  3. #22003
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?
    Please don't reply to me with Russian talking heads and their propaganda, you disturbed person.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  4. #22004
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?

    Their lives, at which point the criminals in Putler's inner circle will do what criminals do best and backstab their master to save their hide.

  5. #22005
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Yeah no, maybe you bois are brave big boy pants types. But I have actual plans for future that don't involve economy blowing up and world going to full out war.

    This thing will be self-resolved in the next decade anyway, because Putin is not eternal and eventually the patriotic fervor will die down and they will have to address troubles at home.

    What Russia did is yet another Afghanistan - they will stay there for some years and even see relative points of success, but in the end they won't be able to keep paying the costs and will have to get the fuck away a lesser state than they were a year ago.

    All the West needs to do is the same shit it did in Afghanistan in 80s - arm locals and let them do the job. Eventually Russia will understand that there is nothing to gain there anymore and fuck off.

    And I wish to remind you again that USSR in 80s was stronger than Russia of today, even with all the system troubles brewing.

    It's called patience, not pepega mmo-c style "lol fire ze missilez, I can take it!".

  6. #22006
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah no, maybe you bois are brave big boy pants types. But I have actual plans for future that don't involve economy blowing up and world going to full out war.

    This thing will be self-resolved in the next decade anyway, because Putin is not eternal and eventually the patriotic fervor will die down and they will have to address troubles at home.

    What Russia did is yet another Afghanistan - they will stay there for some years and even see relative points of success, but in the end they won't be able to keep paying the costs and will have to get the fuck away a lesser state than they were a year ago.

    All the West needs to do is the same shit it did in Afghanistan in 80s - arm locals and let them do the job. Eventually Russia will understand that there is nothing to gain there anymore and fuck off.

    And I wish to remind you again that USSR in 80s was stronger than Russia of today, even with all the system troubles brewing.

    It's called patience, not pepega mmo-c style "lol fire ze missilez, I can take it!".
    Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

    Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

    We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 2022-07-30 at 07:34 PM.

  7. #22007
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

    Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

    We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.
    Swear off violence? The West engages and supports plenty of violence all around the world. The US alone is responsible for most of the violence from war in the 21st century.

    We just prefer the world doesn't end in nuclear fire.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #22008
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Swear off violence? The West engages and supports plenty of violence all around the world. The US alone is responsible for most of the violence from war in the 21st century.

    We just prefer the world doesn't end in nuclear fire.
    And slapping down ruskies from Ukraine wouldn't end in nuclear fire.

  9. #22009
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    And slapping down ruskies from Ukraine wouldn't end in nuclear fire.
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #22010
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

    Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

    We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.
    And that's why we need to go to useless wars.

    It's really simple - what is happening now already has happened in the past - it's history repeating itself and the solution here is not to go some idiotic wars majority in West does not care for but simply keep giving limited amount weapons for Ukrainians to deal with this themselves, which they are perfectly capable of doing.

    Russia has no answer to this trickling of weapons into Ukraine - it can't directly attack West over this, because you better believe they don't want to escalate it further with West too and it does not really have the means to stop this without wittling themselves down.

    So all West needs to do is simply get by the upcoming winter, solve their energy dependency and keep limited weapons support for Ukraine which is just enough to keep them afloat and just not enough for Russia to go to full out war with West over.

    Then eventually time will solve it, simply because there is no winning scenario here for Russia. They can't capture Kiev, they can't change the "regime", they can't keep this up forever and pressure at home will grow to the point where it may boil over. So this is simply a matter of time then anyway.

    Does it suck balls for Ukraine? True enough, but in the grand scale of things - it's their job to suck it up for West. Yes, not a nice way to put it, but it's the actual reality of the "plan" going on here, if you did not notice.

    So yes, Ukraine will get fucked, but the rest of us will keep living our cozy lives pretending it does not exist, like we did before and in reality do now if you look around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    Practically TLDR version of what I wrote above.

  11. #22011
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    Actually them going to nukes over Ukraine would be the canary in the coal mine.

    It would mean that nukes were already an inevitable outcome on this as they wouldn’t stop after it and we know it.

    They would push, get rewarded for it, then push again after they recovered as they know none will stop them and so on.

    At which point it would be better for the nukes to come out now than when they are in an even more favorable position from getting away with that threat before and getting rewarded for it.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  12. #22012
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    Nobody is going to end up nuking because of Ukraine. Even if we were to go in there in the help of Ukraine to kick the Russian soldiers out of there (and not try to conquer Russia in turn). Russian oligarchs are rich and powerful people, and using nukes would guarantee they wouldn't remain either rich nor powerful. And there is absolutely no way they would piss their life of luxury away like that. Even if Russia were to lose this war, and Russia as country would suffer because of it, they would still remain, virtually unscathed by it all.
    Last edited by Santti; 2022-07-30 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  13. #22013
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And that's why we need to go to useless wars.

    It's really simple - what is happening now already has happened in the past - it's history repeating itself and the solution here is not to go some idiotic wars majority in West does not care for but simply keep giving limited amount weapons for Ukrainians to deal with this themselves, which they are perfectly capable of doing.

    Russia has no answer to this trickling of weapons into Ukraine - it can't directly attack West over this, because you better believe they don't want to escalate it further with West too and it does not really have the means to stop this without wittling themselves down.

    So all West needs to do is simply get by the upcoming winter, solve their energy dependency and keep limited weapons support for Ukraine which is just enough to keep them afloat and just not enough for Russia to go to full out war with West over.

    Then eventually time will solve it, simply because there is no winning scenario here for Russia. They can't capture Kiev, they can't change the "regime", they can't keep this up forever and pressure at home will grow to the point where it may boil over. So this is simply a matter of time then anyway.

    Does it suck balls for Ukraine? True enough, but in the grand scale of things - it's their job to suck it up for West. Yes, not a nice way to put it, but it's the actual reality of the "plan" going on here, if you did not notice.

    So yes, Ukraine will get fucked, but the rest of us will keep living our cozy lives pretending it does not exist, like we did before and in reality do now if you look around.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Practically TLDR version of what I wrote above.
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.

  14. #22014
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.
    There is also the fact that we are also suffering ourselves, for not helping. So there is a selfish reason to go there, as well. Prices on food are steadily rising, and the war has displaced a lot of people, many of which are going to the neighboring countries. I'm not saying we shouldn't take them, we absolutely should, but it does come with a cost, and it would be best for all, if they didn't have to leave their now ruined homes.

    And then there is oil, which is also getting very expensive, and it ain't getting better until either Russia or Ukraine gives up, and I don't see Ukraine giving up. They are fighting for survival over there; surrendering would mean death. Countries are absolutely looking forward to ending this as soon as possible, and hoping to return to normal with us buying Russian oil as before. For now, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  15. #22015
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Actually them going to nukes over Ukraine would be the canary in the coal mine.

    It would mean that nukes were already an inevitable outcome on this as they wouldn’t stop after it and we know it.

    They would push, get rewarded for it, then push again after they recovered as they know none will stop them and so on.

    At which point it would be better for the nukes to come out now than when they are in an even more favorable position from getting away with that threat before and getting rewarded for it.
    I don't think Russia is going to recover and go again for a considerable time with the way their economy is going to be going and everyone around them running to get into NATO as fast as they can.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #22016
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.

    West "caring" about Ukraine is about as much as it was caring about Afghanistan and shit like that - from your standpoint it's all shitholes that exist only to fulfill your geopolitical goals. You only started "caring" about Ukraine the moment you realized it's a good counter-balance to Russia and not just going to explode the moment single Russian tank column moves in.

    If Russia was not a thing and Ukraine was not right in Europe's backdoor, you'd not give even slightest fuck about Ukraine. Just like you don't give a fuck about some random country in Africa that has bloody coups every Monday and Thrusday.

    But here's the thing - despite me being said Ukrainian, I no longer live in that shitty ex-Soviet republic with all its chronic sickness like every such republic has in-between wild corruption, crime and thinly veiled noveau nationalism. And I totally do not want to bind my destiny to that of that country. And as such, I don't want the world to go to war over that place that has no relevance whatsoever for my current life and livelihood.

  17. #22017
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.
    Oh, but I do care. Both Gabriel and I are Finns. We share the same unfortunate connection of being targets of Russian imperialism. That is very much the sentiment Finns feel about this war.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  18. #22018
    i think the enduring talk of the russian economy plummeting is pretty nonsense. it's been sanctions up the ass as words are concerned, but russia still exists and has enough time to do shit like make a fake mcdonalds
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  19. #22019
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    i think the enduring talk of the russian economy plummeting is pretty nonsense
    I also think that people who thought/think Russia is just going to implode in few months are coocoo. But over the course of half a decade or a decade? Now that's a legit talk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Oh, but I do care. Both Gabriel and I are Finns. We share the same unfortunate connection of being targets of Russian imperialism. That is very much the sentiment Finns feel about this war.
    That's wonderful, but realize this - for me being some 2.5k kilometers away from Russia - it's hardly my priority or something I'd want the world go to war over and negatively affect my quality of life.

    In my list of shit to do - taking down Russia is somewhere between learning ballet and climbing Everest.

  20. #22020
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.

    West "caring" about Ukraine is about as much as it was caring about Afghanistan and shit like that - from your standpoint it's all shitholes that exist only to fulfill your geopolitical goals. You only started "caring" about Ukraine the moment you realized it's a good counter-balance to Russia and not just going to explode the moment single Russian tank column moves in.

    If Russia was not a thing and Ukraine was not right in Europe's backdoor, you'd not give even slightest fuck about Ukraine. Just like you don't give a fuck about some random country in Africa that has bloody coups every Monday and Thrusday.

    But here's the thing - despite me being said Ukrainian, I no longer live in that shitty ex-Soviet republic with all its chronic sickness like every such republic has in-between wild corruption, crime and thinly veiled noveau nationalism. And I totally do not want to bind my destiny to that of that country. And as such, I don't want the world to go to war over that place that has no relevance whatsoever for my current life and livelihood.
    I'm from Finland, motherfucker. I've had it drilled into me since the day I was born how fucking much it sucks to get groped by russia. We know what the Ukrainians are going through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I also think that people who thought/think Russia is just going to implode in few months are coocoo. But over the course of half a decade or a decade? Now that's a legit talk.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's wonderful, but realize this - for me being some 2.5k kilometers away from Russia - it's hardly my priority or something I'd want the world go to war over and negatively affect my quality of life.

    In my list of shit to do - taking down Russia is somewhere between learning ballet and climbing Everest.
    Yeah it's never your problem until it is at your doorstep. Good luck in life with that attitude, buddy.

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