Russian invasion of Ukraine

[YUPPIE]

Yeah...no. If you want to see the world burn that's fine, I'd rather not. Calling nuclear bluff with someone who doesn't care is generally not a great idea,.

as people have and keep pointed/pointing out though (and I'm not adding to the suggestion the other guy made), if NATO or the West just kowtows to the nuclear blackmail, Putin will feel emboldened to keep conquering and killing as he pleases.

It's his biggest card. So regardless of doing nothing or going the violent route, he wins regardless. As you said, he doesn't give a shit, so if he dies in MAD, he'll feel it's a victory if his enemies go down with him.

[Belize]

NATO should just go in and kill them all. 5 Months ago.

Call the nuclear bluff.

Why would they? They have Ukraine willingly throwing their own troops at Russia, and all NATO has to do is arm them.

[Kallisto]

as people have and keep pointed/pointing out though (and I'm not adding to the suggestion the other guy made), if NATO or the West just kowtows to the nuclear blackmail, Putin will feel emboldened to keep conquering and killing as he pleases.

It's his biggest card. So regardless of doing nothing or going the violent route, he wins regardless. As you said, he doesn't give a shit, so if he dies in MAD, he'll feel it's a victory if his enemies go down with him.

You do realise there's a period in history that shows why going in to fight a nuclear power directly is a very bad idea. It starts around 1948 and ends around 1991.

[YUPPIE]

You do realise there's a period in history that shows why going in to fight a nuclear power directly is a very bad idea. It starts around 1948 and ends around 1991.

I AM NOT suggesting violence. I am just saying because there's no diplomatic or violent solution to stopping Russia, Putin will win. He can't be stopped when there are no options to play.

That's all.

[Gabriel]

Just because YUPPIE has an unhealthy obsession with nukes, doesn't make him wrong about what is necessary to end the war in Ukraine.

The West needs to put on the Big Boy Pants and realize that the relative peace and prosperity we have had for the past century is an anomaly, and if we want to extend it, we need to do more than Thoughts and Prayers.

[XDurionX]

no. it's more like no one knows what a solution to this crisis is anymore, not even myself. So if there are any creative ideas, feel free to share them.

A) Diplomacy: has been entirely rejected by Russia. All attempts. They will not stop their genocidal conquest no matter what.

B) Violence: Meh, people have divided opinions on this. Mostly bad.

So, what can be done, really? NATO is clearly gearing up for the probability of option two, though.

There. Won't. Ever. Be. Any. Military. Involvement. Of. Nato. Over. Ukraine.

You won't get the world war you desire so much.

[Kallisto]

Just because YUPPIE has an unhealthy obsession with nukes, doesn't make him wrong about what is necessary to end the war in Ukraine.

The West needs to put on the Big Boy Pants and realize that the relative peace and prosperity we have had for the past century is an anomaly, and if we want to extend it, we need to do more than Thoughts and Prayers.

Then go sign up as a volunteer. Rational, civilized people realise that we don't let emotions deictate foreign policy and the only acceptable chance of a nuclear conflict is 0.00000000000000000%.

[Gabriel]

Then go sign up as a volunteer. Rational, civilized people realise that we don't let emotions deictate foreign policy and the only acceptable chance of a nuclear conflict is 0.00000000000000000%.

And this is exactly why Russia does what it does, and will do so in the future. Because it knows it can.

[Kallisto]

And this is exactly why Russia does what it does, and will do so in the future. Because it knows it can.

And your solution ends humanity. The fate of nearly 8 billion people is far more important than the fate of 40millionish people.

[Gabriel]

And your solution ends humanity. The fate of nearly 8 billion people is far more important than the fate of 40millionish people.

What fucking solution? Blowing away ruskies from Ukraine with something like coordinated Western coalition air forces wouldn't lead to nuclear war. Revoking all visas for russian nationals in EU and the US wouldn't lead to nuclear war. Closing oil and gas pipelines from russia wouldn't lead to nuclear war.

[Makabreska]

And your solution ends humanity. The fate of nearly 8 billion people is far more important than the fate of 40millionish people.

And again, approach like this is why Russia has still any pull in todays world. "Aw damn, better not help too much countries Russia attacks, they have n00kz". But guess what? Their threats are empty and desperate. Finland/Sweden will join NATO, and what is Russia going to do? Nothing. Embargos come in left and right, choking ruskies, and what are they going to do? Nothing.

[YUPPIE]

But guess what? Their threats are empty and desperate.

wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?

[Makabreska]

wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?

Please don't reply to me with Russian talking heads and their propaganda, you disturbed person.

[Gabriel]

wouldn't say that if we hypothetically push them into an absolute corner through sanctions and potentially repelling them out of Ukraine completely. Because at that point, what would they have left to lose?

Their lives, at which point the criminals in Putler's inner circle will do what criminals do best and backstab their master to save their hide.

[Gaidax]

Yeah no, maybe you bois are brave big boy pants types. But I have actual plans for future that don't involve economy blowing up and world going to full out war.

This thing will be self-resolved in the next decade anyway, because Putin is not eternal and eventually the patriotic fervor will die down and they will have to address troubles at home.

What Russia did is yet another Afghanistan - they will stay there for some years and even see relative points of success, but in the end they won't be able to keep paying the costs and will have to get the fuck away a lesser state than they were a year ago.

All the West needs to do is the same shit it did in Afghanistan in 80s - arm locals and let them do the job. Eventually Russia will understand that there is nothing to gain there anymore and fuck off.

And I wish to remind you again that USSR in 80s was stronger than Russia of today, even with all the system troubles brewing.

It's called patience, not pepega mmo-c style "lol fire ze missilez, I can take it!".

[Gabriel]

Yeah no, maybe you bois are brave big boy pants types. But I have actual plans for future that don't involve economy blowing up and world going to full out war.

This thing will be self-resolved in the next decade anyway, because Putin is not eternal and eventually the patriotic fervor will die down and they will have to address troubles at home.

What Russia did is yet another Afghanistan - they will stay there for some years and even see relative points of success, but in the end they won't be able to keep paying the costs and will have to get the fuck away a lesser state than they were a year ago.

All the West needs to do is the same shit it did in Afghanistan in 80s - arm locals and let them do the job. Eventually Russia will understand that there is nothing to gain there anymore and fuck off.

And I wish to remind you again that USSR in 80s was stronger than Russia of today, even with all the system troubles brewing.

It's called patience, not pepega mmo-c style "lol fire ze missilez, I can take it!".

Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.

[Gorsameth]

Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.

Swear off violence? The West engages and supports plenty of violence all around the world. The US alone is responsible for most of the violence from war in the 21st century.

We just prefer the world doesn't end in nuclear fire.

[Gabriel]

Swear off violence? The West engages and supports plenty of violence all around the world. The US alone is responsible for most of the violence from war in the 21st century.

We just prefer the world doesn't end in nuclear fire.

And slapping down ruskies from Ukraine wouldn't end in nuclear fire.

[Gorsameth]

And slapping down ruskies from Ukraine wouldn't end in nuclear fire.

The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.

[Gaidax]

Russia isn't even the issue. You think China will give play nice once they are done with their planning and building?

Edit: besides, russia and China don't give a shit about your plans, and that is exactly the thing I want us Westerners to fucking learn already.

We can act all high and mighty and swear off violence as something for uncivilized brutes, but the brutes won't care. In fact it just makes it easier for them to use violence to get what they want.

And that's why we need to go to useless wars.

It's really simple - what is happening now already has happened in the past - it's history repeating itself and the solution here is not to go some idiotic wars majority in West does not care for but simply keep giving limited amount weapons for Ukrainians to deal with this themselves, which they are perfectly capable of doing.

Russia has no answer to this trickling of weapons into Ukraine - it can't directly attack West over this, because you better believe they don't want to escalate it further with West too and it does not really have the means to stop this without wittling themselves down.

So all West needs to do is simply get by the upcoming winter, solve their energy dependency and keep limited weapons support for Ukraine which is just enough to keep them afloat and just not enough for Russia to go to full out war with West over.

Then eventually time will solve it, simply because there is no winning scenario here for Russia. They can't capture Kiev, they can't change the "regime", they can't keep this up forever and pressure at home will grow to the point where it may boil over. So this is simply a matter of time then anyway.

Does it suck balls for Ukraine? True enough, but in the grand scale of things - it's their job to suck it up for West. Yes, not a nice way to put it, but it's the actual reality of the "plan" going on here, if you did not notice.

So yes, Ukraine will get fucked, but the rest of us will keep living our cozy lives pretending it does not exist, like we did before and in reality do now if you look around.

- - - Updated - - -

The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.

Practically TLDR version of what I wrote above.