1. #22141
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I think you underestimate how much Russians know. The problem is that they don't care. They have been "amoralized" and "untruthed" by Putin over the years, effectively making them into psychopaths. They want to be bottoms for Putin. That's the only thing they care about. "I'm not political" is the same as supporting this genocide.
    Russians have basically lived under a dictatorship and been oppressed for so long that resistance has been effectively beaten out of them. They know the government is full of shit, but what are you going to do about it when speaking up ends up with you in a Siberian prison camp. So they just shrug and bear it, because from their point of view they have no other option.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  2. #22142
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Russians have basically lived under a dictatorship and been oppressed for so long that resistance has been effectively beaten out of them. They know the government is full of shit, but what are you going to do about it when speaking up ends up with you in a Siberian prison camp. So they just shrug and bear it, because from their point of view they have no other option.
    You are partly right. russia is essentially the largest eugenics project in the world, where Stalin began a process of killing of all the people capable of independent thought and resistance to authority. The part you are mistaken is that they are some poor oppressed people. No, the end result of Stalin's little project is a nation of people that actively seek to be oppressed by a strongman and view lies and deceit not as vices, but as virtues.

    If you had a magical button that when pressed made Putin and the entire russian government magically disappear, the russian people would would just build the exact same system again.

  3. #22143
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    You are partly right. russia is essentially the largest eugenics project in the world, where Stalin began a process of killing of all the people capable of independent thought and resistance to authority. The part you are mistaken is that they are some poor oppressed people. No, the end result of Stalin's little project is a nation of people that actively seek to be oppressed by a strongman and view lies and deceit not as vices, but as virtues.

    If you had a magical button that when pressed made Putin and the entire russian government magically disappear, the russian people would would just build the exact same system again.
    Because they have never known anything else. Its not different (almost) every other dictatorship that suddenly gains freedom and runs right back into another dictatorship. Democratic ideals need time to take root and decades upon decades of political indoctrination don't just disappear overnight.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #22144
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    9,504
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    While Russia is in no state to respond to it, it will be "interesting" how Turkey reacts.
    By cheering Azerbaijan on, most likely, if that spirals into a war.

    Turkish relations with Armenia are frosty at best despite normalisation attempts in recent time.

  5. #22145
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    2,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Because they have never known anything else. Its not different (almost) every other dictatorship that suddenly gains freedom and runs right back into another dictatorship. Democratic ideals need time to take root and decades upon decades of political indoctrination don't just disappear overnight.
    Exactly, as Lebed said:

    “I am a Soviet man, and Yeltsin is a Soviet man - maybe our grandchildren will be different.”
    -- Alexander Lebed

    I take that to mean that at least 2 generations of democratic reforms would be needed before democracy could reign unchallenged in the Former, now hard on its way to Neo, USSR.

  6. #22146
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Exactly, as Lebed said:

    “I am a Soviet man, and Yeltsin is a Soviet man - maybe our grandchildren will be different.”
    -- Alexander Lebed

    I take that to mean that at least 2 generations of democratic reforms would be needed before democracy could reign unchallenged in the Former, now hard on its way to Neo, USSR.
    I think two generation is being too optimistic slow changes towards democracy is the key to success. In almost every case where democracy has been forced upon the populace it ends in disaster when the people who forced it leave the country to its own devices.

  7. #22147
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    2,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I think two generation is being too optimistic slow changes towards democracy is the key to success. In almost every case where democracy has been forced upon the populace it ends in disaster when the people who forced it leave the country to its own devices.
    Hence the "at least", I was however recently reminded of Chile and how their transition from dictatorship to democracy has been remarkable and they now stand out as a very healthy democracy in South America on par with Europe and North America. So it can be done relatively quickly.

  8. #22148
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Hence the "at least", I was however recently reminded of Chile and how their transition from dictatorship to democracy has been remarkable and they now stand out as a very healthy democracy in South America on par with Europe and North America. So it can be done relatively quickly.
    Chile is different because Pinochet overthrew a democratically elected government with the help of the US government who kept him in power. The seed of their democracy was there previously and it's not popularity that kept their dictator in power.

  9. #22149
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Because they have never known anything else. Its not different (almost) every other dictatorship that suddenly gains freedom and runs right back into another dictatorship. Democratic ideals need time to take root and decades upon decades of political indoctrination don't just disappear overnight.
    But it is not just political indoctrination. It is an entire cultural identity. You are not going to change that for hundreds of years.

  10. #22150
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    2,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    But it is not just political indoctrination. It is an entire cultural identity. You are not going to change that for hundreds of years.
    I mildly disagree, I mean the German cultural identity was changed rather quickly as well. But without occupation I fully agree and that's just not going to happen.

  11. #22151
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I mildly disagree, I mean the German cultural identity was changed rather quickly as well.
    Err... their worship of autocracy lasted only for a very short time. They weren't really like that before it. So the change back was "relatively" easy.
    But with ruZZia, there is no changing back. They've always had a boner for autocracy.

  12. #22152
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Neverland Ranch Survivor
    Posts
    7,038
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I mildly disagree, I mean the German cultural identity was changed rather quickly as well. But without occupation I fully agree and that's just not going to happen.
    Germany got their dick stomped on in WW1. Once a certain Chancellor got in power and gave "Those People" promos, they got their dicks stomped on again in WW2.
    Hey, Hanz. Maybe we shouldn't do that again. My father remembered the first time. I've been through it this time. This sucked. Let's make cars.

    Russia never had their dicks totally stomped on once by a majority of the powers in the world, much less twice in a short period of time. They never had their "Let's make cars" moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  13. #22153
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,286
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Err... their worship of autocracy lasted only for a very short time. They weren't really like that before it. So the change back was "relatively" easy.
    But with ruZZia, there is no changing back. They've always had a boner for autocracy.
    Yup. Tzars, Lenin and the crew, Putler. They all kept Russians on a tight leash. No wonder they turned their glorious leaders into cult objects.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  14. #22154
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I mildly disagree, I mean the German cultural identity was changed rather quickly as well. But without occupation I fully agree and that's just not going to happen.
    I think it also has to do with competing influences in German identity. Prussian militarism was stomped out and the rest got an opportunity to bloom. I am not that well versed on the contributing cultures of Russia (and there must be many given the size of that country). Ultimately what I see in Russia is the importance of the bourgeoisie in transforming from a feudal to a democratic country and that never truly happened for them. There needs to be a moment of individualist empowerment. It doesn't have to sacrifice collectivism (it did not in most of Europe were democracies were strongly social). You can see it happening even in China (and that the Party is probably not enthusiastic about it but will struggle to squash it without destroying everything that brings them power). But in Russia I don't think they ever had a moment where every individual felt they had a right to power.

  15. #22155
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I mildly disagree, I mean the German cultural identity was changed rather quickly as well. But without occupation I fully agree and that's just not going to happen.
    You are still somewhat off the target. The issue isn't just the "roooossia stronk!", but the entire culture of lies and corruption. To my knowledge, Germany never had that sort of thing, and the issue with russia I'm talking about has existed for hundreds of years at this point.

    I have to go search through some archives to see if I have this photocopy of some book from more than hundreds years ago where the author was laying out the fundamental flaws with russian military and how it stems from the overall russian culture...

  16. #22156
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    9,504
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Err... their worship of autocracy lasted only for a very short time. They weren't really like that before it. So the change back was "relatively" easy.
    But with ruZZia, there is no changing back. They've always had a boner for autocracy.
    That "before it" where in itself something that only lasted a short time.

    There were significant autocratic elements in the way Imperial Germany were run prior to WW1. They were not a constitutional monarchy in the sense of the likes of Britain being now, but one where the monarch wielded actual significant political power alongside the existence of the parliament, and made use of it too, at that.
    Last edited by zealo; 2022-08-06 at 07:40 PM.

  17. #22157
    Russian state TV is saying up to 100,000 north Korean 'volunteers' could be sent to Ukraine to help fight and rebuild.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...to-help-russia

    You know Russia is struggling when they are relying on NK to bail them out.

  18. #22158
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Suomi/Nederland
    Posts
    2,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Russian state TV is saying up to 100,000 north Korean 'volunteers' could be sent to Ukraine to help fight and rebuild.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...to-help-russia

    You know Russia is struggling when they are relying on NK to bail them out.
    I'm not sure how much effect those North Koreans would have, what is the quality of the North Korean army? However, I do note it's NK and not China which appears to be committing troops. I'm ALSO noting that this appears to be another way of not mobilizing. I do wonder what China thinks of this. I read somewhere that recently there had been a little bit of a spat between Pyongyang and Beijing because of some high profile anti Chinese statements in NK. (not sure where I read it, nor what the aftermath was.) Additionally...HOW are they going to be supported logistically?

    Wouldn't this backfire though, like wouldn't this be akin to admitting the cause is lost?
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-08-07 at 12:51 AM.

  19. #22159
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    9,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Russian state TV is saying up to 100,000 north Korean 'volunteers' could be sent to Ukraine to help fight and rebuild.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...to-help-russia

    You know Russia is struggling when they are relying on NK to bail them out.
    Wow. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Just embarrassing. Can't help but wonder how eager they are to fight, when Russians themselves are struggling with morale.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  20. #22160
    I'm thinking that sending North Korean troops is China's way of appeasing Russia. That North Korean troops are likely going to bite it is a good 2 for 1 deal. Russia gets what they want and NK gets spanked.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •