1. #22161
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    Actually them going to nukes over Ukraine would be the canary in the coal mine.

    It would mean that nukes were already an inevitable outcome on this as they wouldn’t stop after it and we know it.

    They would push, get rewarded for it, then push again after they recovered as they know none will stop them and so on.

    At which point it would be better for the nukes to come out now than when they are in an even more favorable position from getting away with that threat before and getting rewarded for it.
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  2. #22162
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The sad truth is that Ukraine isn't worth taking that risk.
    Nobody is going to end up nuking because of Ukraine. Even if we were to go in there in the help of Ukraine to kick the Russian soldiers out of there (and not try to conquer Russia in turn). Russian oligarchs are rich and powerful people, and using nukes would guarantee they wouldn't remain either rich nor powerful. And there is absolutely no way they would piss their life of luxury away like that. Even if Russia were to lose this war, and Russia as country would suffer because of it, they would still remain, virtually unscathed by it all.
    Last edited by Santti; 2022-07-30 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  3. #22163
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And that's why we need to go to useless wars.

    It's really simple - what is happening now already has happened in the past - it's history repeating itself and the solution here is not to go some idiotic wars majority in West does not care for but simply keep giving limited amount weapons for Ukrainians to deal with this themselves, which they are perfectly capable of doing.

    Russia has no answer to this trickling of weapons into Ukraine - it can't directly attack West over this, because you better believe they don't want to escalate it further with West too and it does not really have the means to stop this without wittling themselves down.

    So all West needs to do is simply get by the upcoming winter, solve their energy dependency and keep limited weapons support for Ukraine which is just enough to keep them afloat and just not enough for Russia to go to full out war with West over.

    Then eventually time will solve it, simply because there is no winning scenario here for Russia. They can't capture Kiev, they can't change the "regime", they can't keep this up forever and pressure at home will grow to the point where it may boil over. So this is simply a matter of time then anyway.

    Does it suck balls for Ukraine? True enough, but in the grand scale of things - it's their job to suck it up for West. Yes, not a nice way to put it, but it's the actual reality of the "plan" going on here, if you did not notice.

    So yes, Ukraine will get fucked, but the rest of us will keep living our cozy lives pretending it does not exist, like we did before and in reality do now if you look around.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Practically TLDR version of what I wrote above.
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.

  4. #22164
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.
    There is also the fact that we are also suffering ourselves, for not helping. So there is a selfish reason to go there, as well. Prices on food are steadily rising, and the war has displaced a lot of people, many of which are going to the neighboring countries. I'm not saying we shouldn't take them, we absolutely should, but it does come with a cost, and it would be best for all, if they didn't have to leave their now ruined homes.

    And then there is oil, which is also getting very expensive, and it ain't getting better until either Russia or Ukraine gives up, and I don't see Ukraine giving up. They are fighting for survival over there; surrendering would mean death. Countries are absolutely looking forward to ending this as soon as possible, and hoping to return to normal with us buying Russian oil as before. For now, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  5. #22165
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Actually them going to nukes over Ukraine would be the canary in the coal mine.

    It would mean that nukes were already an inevitable outcome on this as they wouldn’t stop after it and we know it.

    They would push, get rewarded for it, then push again after they recovered as they know none will stop them and so on.

    At which point it would be better for the nukes to come out now than when they are in an even more favorable position from getting away with that threat before and getting rewarded for it.
    I don't think Russia is going to recover and go again for a considerable time with the way their economy is going to be going and everyone around them running to get into NATO as fast as they can.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #22166
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I apologize for caring about Ukrainians enough so that I'd prefer we didn't sacrifice them if we have the ability not to.
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.

    West "caring" about Ukraine is about as much as it was caring about Afghanistan and shit like that - from your standpoint it's all shitholes that exist only to fulfill your geopolitical goals. You only started "caring" about Ukraine the moment you realized it's a good counter-balance to Russia and not just going to explode the moment single Russian tank column moves in.

    If Russia was not a thing and Ukraine was not right in Europe's backdoor, you'd not give even slightest fuck about Ukraine. Just like you don't give a fuck about some random country in Africa that has bloody coups every Monday and Thrusday.

    But here's the thing - despite me being said Ukrainian, I no longer live in that shitty ex-Soviet republic with all its chronic sickness like every such republic has in-between wild corruption, crime and thinly veiled noveau nationalism. And I totally do not want to bind my destiny to that of that country. And as such, I don't want the world to go to war over that place that has no relevance whatsoever for my current life and livelihood.
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  7. #22167
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.
    Oh, but I do care. Both Gabriel and I are Finns. We share the same unfortunate connection of being targets of Russian imperialism. That is very much the sentiment Finns feel about this war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  8. #22168
    i think the enduring talk of the russian economy plummeting is pretty nonsense. it's been sanctions up the ass as words are concerned, but russia still exists and has enough time to do shit like make a fake mcdonalds

  9. #22169
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    i think the enduring talk of the russian economy plummeting is pretty nonsense
    I also think that people who thought/think Russia is just going to implode in few months are coocoo. But over the course of half a decade or a decade? Now that's a legit talk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Oh, but I do care. Both Gabriel and I are Finns. We share the same unfortunate connection of being targets of Russian imperialism. That is very much the sentiment Finns feel about this war.
    That's wonderful, but realize this - for me being some 2.5k kilometers away from Russia - it's hardly my priority or something I'd want the world go to war over and negatively affect my quality of life.

    In my list of shit to do - taking down Russia is somewhere between learning ballet and climbing Everest.
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  10. #22170
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Caring about Ukrainians? Don't give this shit to me, I am born Ukraininan from Odessa.

    West "caring" about Ukraine is about as much as it was caring about Afghanistan and shit like that - from your standpoint it's all shitholes that exist only to fulfill your geopolitical goals. You only started "caring" about Ukraine the moment you realized it's a good counter-balance to Russia and not just going to explode the moment single Russian tank column moves in.

    If Russia was not a thing and Ukraine was not right in Europe's backdoor, you'd not give even slightest fuck about Ukraine. Just like you don't give a fuck about some random country in Africa that has bloody coups every Monday and Thrusday.

    But here's the thing - despite me being said Ukrainian, I no longer live in that shitty ex-Soviet republic with all its chronic sickness like every such republic has in-between wild corruption, crime and thinly veiled noveau nationalism. And I totally do not want to bind my destiny to that of that country. And as such, I don't want the world to go to war over that place that has no relevance whatsoever for my current life and livelihood.
    I'm from Finland, motherfucker. I've had it drilled into me since the day I was born how fucking much it sucks to get groped by russia. We know what the Ukrainians are going through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I also think that people who thought/think Russia is just going to implode in few months are coocoo. But over the course of half a decade or a decade? Now that's a legit talk.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's wonderful, but realize this - for me being some 2.5k kilometers away from Russia - it's hardly my priority or something I'd want the world go to war over and negatively affect my quality of life.

    In my list of shit to do - taking down Russia is somewhere between learning ballet and climbing Everest.
    Yeah it's never your problem until it is at your doorstep. Good luck in life with that attitude, buddy.

  11. #22171
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Yeah it's never your problem until it is at your doorstep. Good luck in life with that attitude, buddy.
    Guess what? That's how the shit works and you are one of them hotheads trying to bring this trouble to everyone's doorstep.

    You're practically like Yuppie except for "nooks" it's "lol let's go to world war, I got big boy pants!!". Both fools.
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  12. #22172
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Guess what? That's how the shit works and you are one of them hotheads trying to bring this trouble to everyone's doorstep.

    You're practically like Yuppie except for "nooks" it's "lol let's go to world war, I got big boy pants!!". Both fools.
    I hope you never plan on having kids with your attitude of "lol not my problem, let other people handle it".

    Edit: and cut the shit with "HELPING UKRAINE KILL RUSKIES LEADS TO WOOOOORLD WAAAAAAR THREEEEEEEEE". It won't.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 2022-07-30 at 08:57 PM.

  13. #22173
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I hope you never plan on having kids with your attitude of "lol not my problem, let other people handle it".

    Edit: and cut the shit with "HELPING UKRAINE KILL RUSKIES LEADS TO WOOOOORLD WAAAAAAR THREEEEEEEEE". It won't.
    Planning on having 3, that's why I don't want any fucking useless crap wars.

    And it's fucking history - you do the very same thing West did in 80s with Afghanistan and Russian house of cards crumbles all the same. That is literally all you need to do - USSR died and West did not have to fire a single bullet.
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  14. #22174
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Planning on having 3, that's why I don't want any fucking useless crap wars.

    And it's fucking history - you do the very same thing West did in 80s with Afghanistan and Russian house of cards crumbles all the same. That is literally all you need to do - USSR died and West did not have to fire a single bullet.
    What a great parent you are, wanting to kick the can of worms down the road until it blows up in your kids' faces instead of yours.

  15. #22175
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    What a great parent you are, wanting to kick the can of worms down the road until it blows up in your kids' faces instead of yours.
    But they won't exactly because literally all that needs to happen is time in this case.

    What they will get to deal with is China vs US nonsense, Russia won't be a concern of anyone down in 2050. But then by that time I'll be retired and all I'll care about is growing some potatos or shit in a summer house waiting for that heart attack to pop me.
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  16. #22176
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    But they won't exactly because literally all that needs to happen is time in this case.

    What they will get to deal with is China vs US nonsense, Russia won't be a concern of anyone down in 2050. But then by that time I'll be retired and all I'll care about is growing some potatos or shit in a summer house waiting for that heart attack to pop me.
    Keep appeasing russia and see how well that goes over when China realizes just how far they actually can push the West without proper resistance.

  17. #22177
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Stay civil and keep in mind what you're posting. Toeing the line between demanding major violent escalation and suggesting millions need to be sacrificed for Western comfort isn't okay. Besides that, there is no need to argue about your personal levels of concern. That's not a line of discussion that will lead to anything besides more inflammatory discussion.
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  18. #22178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Next war crime has come to light. Russia reported more than 40 Ukrainian POWs are dead, claiming Ukraine attacked the camp they were in, even going so far to plant HIMARS debris there.

    Ukraine has said they never fired anywhere near the sites and have released Intel, including intercepted calls, showing the Russians moved the prisoners there just days before then detonated the site in an effort to cover up the torture and murder of POWs. Ukraine is asking that the UN and the Red Cross be allowed to the site to investigate. Just watch Russia deny them access.

    And to reinforce just how suspicious Russia's claims are, not a single Russia guard was as much as injured in the 'attack'.
    Well, that's unexpected

    So I think this is an obvious PR ploy, but I still think the UN and Red Cross should accept.

  19. #22179
    Not like anything will come out of it anyway. Even if, by chance, Russia is actually telling the truth there - it does not change anything in the giant ass list of shit they did anyway.

    And then I mean let's say UN/Red Cross come there and inspect - what will it even matter, they can't do shit about it either way.
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  20. #22180
    Pandaren Monk Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Not like anything will come out of it anyway. Even if, by chance, Russia is actually telling the truth there - it does not change anything in the giant ass list of shit they did anyway.

    And then I mean let's say UN/Red Cross come there and inspect - what will it even matter, they can't do shit about it either way.
    Let's say russia IS speaking the truth, then they didn't attack, if Ukraine also didn't attack, then who did? It's not about the rest of the war it's about this specific incident and the treatment of POWs, russia isn't necessarily interested in treating POWs well but they also have no interest in treating them particularly bad. Now, according to at least one Ukrainian source this strike was not authorized by the russian ministry of defense, and it was used as a way to erase evidence of "embezzlement of funds meant for POWs.", whatever that means. Interestingly enough the day before the attack a high ranking officer from the southern military district was arrested on suspicion of..."embezzlement of funds".

    So while russia might not care about dead POWs they do care about embezzlement and rogue elements using heavy weaponry to hide crimes (and so should we, as that is quite worrying.), and I suppose that's what they want to find out...if they are telling the truth.

    As I said though, my suspicion is that it is primarily for PR reasons.

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