1. #22241
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I think Ukraine being a direct neighbour to the EU is a bigger factor then their natural resources.
    (which is not to say that their resources are not a consideration)
    That plays into it as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    If resources were that big of a consideration we'd have intervened after crimea. That poster just looks at everything through the lens of "America Bad!"
    Who says it's America bad? government acts in whatever drives their interest and I rather see the world for what it is then some made up fairy land where we are the good guys here. The natural resources of Crimea and the separate regions are not the main prize in this war, bread basket diplomacy is also a thing China is currently using their considerable stock pile as leverage.

    If Putin had done a small incursion instead of going for the whole pie we probably would have reacted the same as before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it's also "a lot of white people dying on TV" that makes a difference.
    Well the press hasn't been subtle when it comes to pointing out that difference.

  2. #22242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it's also "a lot of white people dying on TV" that makes a difference.
    I think it's more of a "take care of your neighbors" thing - something many states around the world, whining about how bad the West is, fails at. Take care of your neighbors! Meanwhile many flee to the West... go figure.

  3. #22243
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    If Putin had done a small incursion instead of going for the whole pie we probably would have reacted the same as before.
    Possibly. I would hope we would have been wiser then as well, but we didn't learn much from Georgia and Crimea.

    It's also interesting to compare this war with General Shirreff's (fmr DSACEUR - so it does indicate NATO and UK thinking) "War With Russia"; where a piece of Ukraine is just swallowed without problem, and even the Baltic States are conquered but with the insurgency that people thought we would see in Ukraine.

    I also wonder if the President have read it - including the end.

  4. #22244
    The US Senate has voted 95-1 to add Sweden and Finland to NATO. Sole no vote was Josh Hawley, while Rand Paul voted present.

  5. #22245
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The US Senate has voted 95-1 to add Sweden and Finland to NATO. Sole no vote was Josh Hawley, while Rand Paul voted present.
    Has Josh Hawley ever found a hill he's not willing to die alone on?

    Though massive fucking laughs about Rand Paul voting present like the spineless sack of shit he's always been.

  6. #22246
    Legendary! Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Has Josh Hawley ever found a hill he's not willing to die alone on?

    Though massive fucking laughs about Rand Paul voting present like the spineless sack of shit he's always been.
    Jan 6th during the insurrection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  7. #22247
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Has Josh Hawley ever found a hill he's not willing to die alone on?
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopymonster View Post
    Jan 6th during the insurrection.
    Yeah...Capital Hill..heh that's good.

  8. #22248
    Pandaren Monk Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The US Senate has voted 95-1 to add Sweden and Finland to NATO. Sole no vote was Josh Hawley, while Rand Paul voted present.
    7 countries have yet to start, Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey. All the others have voted and deposited or are awaiting royal or presidential approval (a few only need to still deposit.). Let's hurry up, yeah?

  9. #22249
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    7 countries have yet to start, Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey. All the others have voted and deposited or are awaiting royal or presidential approval (a few only need to still deposit.). Let's hurry up, yeah?
    Turkey and possibly Hungary are in no hurry.

  10. #22250
    Pandaren Monk Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Turkey and possibly Hungary are in no hurry.
    Yeah, I know.

    In other news, I remember learning about this practice in elementary/first year of secondary ('88-'89) really back to the Sovjet Union eh?

  11. #22251
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    There were mentions of this report...elsewhere on MMO-C recently.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ger-civilians/

    While that can be true, let's not forget Russia as well uses nuclear reactors as shields from counter-fire. And to me, Ukraine is defending its existence from a genocidal opponent, using similar tactics to gain all advantage against the orcish attacker. If Russia can use such shit to genocide Ukraine easier, I don't see why Ukraine shouldn't - aren't places like schools supposed to be evacuated during this war given Russia has proved they care not who they kill?

    But am sure some may use this as a weapon against Ukraine. To be honest calling Ukraine violating the laws of war is just plain trolling by Amnesty at this point, fighting for survival against an enemy that is willing to wipe out every sign of life from a nation hardly gives one time to follow the rules by the book...And we're not talking about systemical murder of POWs and other Russian normal things, we're talking about ukrainian troops using whatever terrain they can, to ensure they can launch offensives to re-capture occupied areas.
    Last edited by Saradain; 2022-08-04 at 03:09 PM.

  12. #22252
    "dear soldier, please stop hiding your location in urban area's and instead build a camp in the woods that is visible to our satellites so we can more easily bomb you. Please and thank you".
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #22253
    Eh, Amnesty's whole thing is to point out and fight human rights violations no matter who commits them or under what circumstance. It's obviously tone deaf considering Ukraine's desperate situation, but tone has never really been high on Amnesty's list of priorities. Usually that's a good thing, but clearly not always.

  14. #22254
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Eh, Amnesty's whole thing is to point out and fight human rights violations no matter who commits them or under what circumstance. It's obviously tone deaf considering Ukraine's desperate situation, but tone has never really been high on Amnesty's list of priorities. Usually that's a good thing, but clearly not always.
    Amnesty can go fuck itself in all honesty, never had them high and this tanked it to below subpar levels.

  15. #22255
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    There were mentions of this report...elsewhere on MMO-C recently.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ger-civilians/

    While that can be true, let's not forget Russia as well uses nuclear reactors as shields from counter-fire. And to me, Ukraine is defending its existence from a genocidal opponent, using similar tactics to gain all advantage against the orcish attacker. If Russia can use such shit to genocide Ukraine easier, I don't see why Ukraine shouldn't - aren't places like schools supposed to be evacuated during this war given Russia has proved they care not who they kill?

    But am sure some may use this as a weapon against Ukraine. To be honest calling Ukraine violating the laws of war is just plain trolling by Amnesty at this point, fighting for survival against an enemy that is willing to wipe out every sign of life from a nation hardly gives one time to follow the rules by the book...And we're not talking about systemical murder of POWs and other Russian normal things, we're talking about ukrainian troops using whatever terrain they can, to ensure they can launch offensives to re-capture occupied areas.
    That's a reality of war, especially when you are defending your home. It was something brought up at the beginning of the war.

    The only thing that can be said in Russia's favor about it is "you can't claim Russia targeting schools when those buildings are no longer being used as schools but housing soldiers".

    That excuse falls apart when:

    a) Russia shouldn't have invaded.
    b) Russia started hitting civilian buildings that were commandeered by Ukrainian soldiers.

    So Russia's behavior cancels out any argument that Ukraine is putting its civilians in danger unless you're looking at things through KGB blinders. You can when debate points if you throw replace Russia with 'US' and Ukraine with 'Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc' when a US warhawk complains about the targets Russia hits. No one really wins at the end of the day, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Eh, Amnesty's whole thing is to point out and fight human rights violations no matter who commits them or under what circumstance. It's obviously tone deaf considering Ukraine's desperate situation, but tone has never really been high on Amnesty's list of priorities. Usually that's a good thing, but clearly not always.
    I don't know much about Amnesty but it seems like they are trying to be objective? But as you said it comes off as extremely tone deaf.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-08-05 at 12:43 AM.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  16. #22256
    At times Amnesty seems to prefer to go after the soft targets. But in this case it is just a stupid take - Ukraine is fighting to prevent genocide. What are they meant to do, just hand over population centres and the people living there to an enemy intent on genocide?

    Elsewhere, in the last week, Schroeder, Trump, Le Pen, Orban and Corbyn have all come out and said that Ukraine needs to negotiate a surrender. (Possibly others that might have been missed from the list as well.) its almost as if marching orders have been sent out - Putin needs this over as his army has completely bogged down and has barely moved in weeks and his supply lines are being hit. The longer it goes on, the worse it will get for him. So he needs a 'peace in our time' Sudetenland surrender of Ukraine to give him time to rebuild and get ready for round three.

  17. #22257
    God, Amnesty is a fucking joke.

    "Just die quickly and efficiently, you stupid Ukrainians. We don't want to know how you already tell civilians to evacuate nor do we care that Putin is invading you and can leave at any time"
    - Amnesty

    Unfortunately, Swedish media is running with their shit as gospel saying Ukrainians are committing war crimes. Jesus we're such a shit country.
    Last edited by Voidism; 2022-08-05 at 03:25 AM.

  18. #22258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    God, Amnesty is a fucking joke.

    "Just die quickly and efficiently, you stupid Ukrainians. We don't want to know how you already tell civilians to evacuate nor do we care that Putin is invading you and can leave at any time"
    - Amnesty

    Unfortunately, Swedish media is running with their shit as gospel saying Ukrainians are committing war crimes. Jesus we're such a shit country.
    Shoot back at russians, hit a nuclear reactor, get blamed for war crimes and a radioactive catastrophe.

    Defend your country from an enemy that wants every last ukrainian dead, "missing" and relocated, get blamed for war crimes.

    An ideal russian world, where they can do no wrong and the truth is a falsehood, and falsehood a truth.

  19. #22259
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    God, Amnesty is a fucking joke.

    "Just die quickly and efficiently, you stupid Ukrainians. We don't want to know how you already tell civilians to evacuate nor do we care that Putin is invading you and can leave at any time"
    - Amnesty

    Unfortunately, Swedish media is running with their shit as gospel saying Ukrainians are committing war crimes. Jesus we're such a shit country.
    Amensty is not a fucking joke because they document all the horrible things every side in war does to hold them all to account. What you think they're saying anything but terrible things about Russia?

    Using schools and hospitals as military areas is a serious matter in any war zone and creates a situation in which those become legitimate military targets.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

  20. #22260
    Amnesty is probably technically correct but the context of the situation would arguably put it into another light. According to the Geneva Conventions a country that is defending itself has some leeway in what it can do in such a situation, and it could be argued that Ukraine had no choice.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

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