1. #22461
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    AFAIK Ukraine didn't have dual citizenship already. A friend had to renounce his Ukrainian's when he got naturalized German a few years ago. And conversely former Georgian president Saakashvili had to renounce his Georgian nationality when he was appointed governor of Odessa.

    Edit : seems that its only very recently that Zelensky signed a law allowing it.
    That could also be the Germans not allowing it though because Ukraine isn't an EU country. For example I'm not allowed to have dual citizenship by the Netherlands, UNLESS I take on the citizenship of my EU spouse. So I can't become US/NL, but I can become NL/SU. If you are born to parents of different nationalities then that is allowed in the Netherlands as well as when you are born in a country that practices Jus Soli
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-07-20 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #22462
    Banned Strawberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    yea i know about azov https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/azov/

    'what happened to russian citizens'? feel free to give the lesson
    Good, now Google what happened to Russian civilians in 2014 in the eastern Ukraine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Why are you posting then?



















    And there's plenty of more, but you simply post so much of conspiracy theories and whataboutism yourself and entirely off-topic replies in this thread that I possibly cannot include them all.

    See you later when the memory of your posting history in this thread fades and you'll return with more pearls of your divine wisdom until driven off again.

    Posting conspiracy theories is not allowed on this forum.
    And I got infracted and banned for a ton of my posts.
    Your point besides wasting probably an hour or so to dig through my posts?
    I'm impressed. Also get a life.

  3. #22463
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post



    And I got infracted and banned for a ton of my posts.
    Your point besides wasting probably an hour or so to dig through my posts?
    I'm impressed. Also get a life.
    A life dismissing Russian apologists and shills is a life worth living for. In essence, you have been wrong at every turn and trying to deflect the discussion at hand into whataboutism.

    Oh, I googled for Jonny. First two results with search terms of "what happened to russian citizens in eastern Ukraine in 2014"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_p...est_in_Ukraine

    From the end of February 2014, demonstrations by pro-Russian and anti-government groups took place in major cities across the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, in the aftermath of the Euromaidan movement and the Revolution of Dignity. This unrest, fomented by Russia as part of a co-ordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ukraine-crisis

    Good thing we're on the same side here eh?

    Or did you mean something else? Why can't you teach us that lesson in history that you claimed you could? Afraid of posting a conspiracy theory that gets you infracted again?

    Are you asking people to Google in hopes of them landing into Kremlin-approved articles so you have the tiniest chance of pretending to be right?

    Right-o, the most important question: my point?

    Your posting history in this thread has been, by far, false in all of its entirety - and you come here and tell people to stop posting conspiracies when you are yourself guilty of trying to spread pro-russian sentiments and covering their war crimey tracks in a manner similar to Kremlin - lies so grand that no one sane would believe them - at least until one is bombarded with said grand lies for decades. Which, thankfully, you are incapable of because people here know your posting motives.

    And you said it yourself, you have been infracted and banned for them. What makes you believe that people should take you and your pro-russian deflection, whataboutism and conspiracies seriously?
    Last edited by Saradain; 2022-07-20 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #22464
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Russia appears to have shot down another of their jets - an SU-35. Thats 2 in two days now. This one was over Kherson.

    Speaking of Kherson, Ukraine struck one of the two bridges that cross the Dnipro. Russians claims are Ukraine fired 6 HIMARs at it, they shot down 5 - and 4 hit the bridge. Russian no good at maths. But it looks like artillery hit it, not HIMARs. Which means Ukraine really are closing in.

    It takes a lot to take down a bridge though. If they can take down the bridges, then the Russians on the other side are stuffed. It could be trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Kherson before they get cut off.
    Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

    Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.

  5. #22465
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

    Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.
    1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.
    2. Forcing a mass surrender would be a big blow to russian morale so it's not impossible as a tactic. (today the russian authorities in Kherson closed the bridge for traffic so who knows, it might work.)

  6. #22466
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.
    2. Forcing a mass surrender would be a big blow to russian morale so it's not impossible as a tactic. (today the russian authorities in Kherson closed the bridge for traffic so who knows, it might work.)
    Mass surrender, or... uh... mass unmaking.

  7. #22467
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Mass surrender, or... uh... mass unmaking.
    Mass unaliving isn't a great idea. For various reasons, not in the least the Geneva convention.

  8. #22468
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Mass unaliving isn't a great idea. For various reasons, not in the least the Geneva convention.
    Would that be the one that RuZZlamists have for all intents and purposes renounced? If they do not feel bound by it, they should not enjoy any benefits from it.

    If one acts like rogue state terrorist, why should others not treat the person as such?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  9. #22469
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Good, now Google what happened to Russian civilians in 2014 in the eastern Ukraine.
    do you mean ukranian citizens?

    Russia invaded, killed ukranian soldiers and citizens, installed a puppet regime and then there was trench warfare with ceasefire every over week. The puppet regime disappeared people, but them in cellars and tortured and executed them. (famously a few journalists)

    the fighting killed 800 odd people early on but for the last 4 years its killed on average 25 people a year?

    25 ukranian people not russians.

    I still don't get your point.

    lavrov today said - 'RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE IS AIMED AT THE TERRITORIAL EXPANSION OF RUSSIA'

    all russian invaders in ukraine must die. NATO should get involved, russia has provoked us too far imo.
    Last edited by jonnysensible; 2022-07-20 at 01:48 PM.

  10. #22470
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Would that be the one that RuZZlamists have for all intents and purposes renounced? If they do not feel bound by it, they should not enjoy any benefits from it.

    If one acts like rogue state terrorist, why should others not treat the person as such?
    One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

    This applies here too.

    Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

    If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

    The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

    Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

    Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

    And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

    In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.

  11. #22471
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    1. Faulty IFF and bob's yer uncle. Scared crews, take your pick.
    Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?

  12. #22472
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?
    Well...yes...but if they have I'm pretty sure it would be faulty.

  13. #22473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

    This applies here too.

    Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

    If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

    The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

    Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

    Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

    And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

    In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.
    Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

    Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  14. #22474
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?
    I think that was Wagner that were using car GPS simply because they didn't trust the Russian own version of it.

  15. #22475
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

    Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.
    Because if there is a way to fuck up doing something, a drunken russian conscript will see it done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

    This applies here too.

    Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

    If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

    The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

    Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

    Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

    And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

    In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.
    Actually you don't have to accept surrender in combat. But if you do, you need to treat the prisoners according to Geneva convention.

  16. #22476
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

    Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"
    A spark might change a perspective. Treating your enemies with civility shows the world you are the good guys, and shows the bad guys that they might be dragged into a war they might have been wrong in. Send enough of those boys home and you might have civil disobdience.

  17. #22477
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Actually you don't have to accept surrender in combat. But if you do, you need to treat the prisoners according to Geneva convention.
    I'm not sure about that - it seems that if you understand that the intent is to surrender you have to accept it in the sense of not attacking them; but communication isn't always clear. (Waving a white flag is in particular unclear.)

    However, you cannot announce that you will not accept a surrender (or give no quarter as it commonly known).

  18. #22478
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

    Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"
    Ok but you want the enemy to surrender to you because a soldier that surrenders and is treated humanly actively increases the likelihood of others surrendering as well, it's essentially a contagious behavior. Killing them however dosnt suddenly make your enemy want to die.

    Plus if you have more prisoners it gives you more to bargain with in any negotiation or prisoner exchange.

  19. #22479
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I'm not sure about that - it seems that if you understand that the intent is to surrender you have to accept it in the sense of not attacking them; but communication isn't always clear. (Waving a white flag is in particular unclear.)

    However, you cannot announce that you will not accept a surrender (or give no quarter as it commonly known).
    Then don't look too hard for white flags with your binoculars and just shell away at their position until someone from over there comes across to inform you they have surrendered.

    Though to be fair I do hope that Ukrainians treat russian prisoners of war with dignity and in accordance of international law. I just wish the rest of us soft westerners would understand that the russians won't return the favor.

    If you get backstabbed by russian it was your own fault for giving them the opportunity.

  20. #22480
    It's absolutely gut-wrenching. Thoughts and prayers to everyone affected by this madness.

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