Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Azadina]

One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

This applies here too.

Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.

Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"

[Kallisto]

Assuming they even have IFFs. Didn't we see them using consumer car GPSes taped to the cockpits in their fighters?

I think that was Wagner that were using car GPS simply because they didn't trust the Russian own version of it.

[Gabriel]

Wait what. How can they shoot down their own aircraft??

Also, I'm starting to think the idea was to get as many Russians as possible on the Ukrainian held side of the river and then blow the bridge, trapping them.

Because if there is a way to fuck up doing something, a drunken russian conscript will see it done.

- - - Updated - - -

One can judge a society by how said society treats it's prisoners.

This applies here too.

Could we stop calling for wholesale murder? On either side?

If Russian troops are killed in active combat, I shed no tears for them, but if they want to surrender that surrender must be accepted.

The Russians have done plenty of warcrimes, but there seems to be no evidence of them murdering wholesale surrendering Ukrainian troops. There seem to have been individual torture and murder cases, but generally they don't seem to be filling mass graves with surrendering Ukrainians.

Think of the Ukrainians who held out in Mariupol for example.

Yes, Russia is a terrorist state, but they seem to exercise some degree of civility.

And the thing is, even if they didn't, even if they'd be full genocidal maniacs, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also as an absolute final point, to horribly butcher Sun Tzu "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on".

In this case that bridge is the knowledge for Russian soldiers that they can just go "Fuck this" and surrender safely to the Ukrainians. Which will both moderate how they treat the Ukrainian civilians as you don't want to get prosecuted for war crimes and will moderate their willingness to fight. No heroic fight to the last man bullshit needed, just surrender and spend the rest of the war safe behind lines with 3 meals a day and you get to go home when it's all over.

Actually you don't have to accept surrender in combat. But if you do, you need to treat the prisoners according to Geneva convention.

[Fuiking]

Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"

A spark might change a perspective. Treating your enemies with civility shows the world you are the good guys, and shows the bad guys that they might be dragged into a war they might have been wrong in. Send enough of those boys home and you might have civil disobdience.

[Forogil]

Actually you don't have to accept surrender in combat. But if you do, you need to treat the prisoners according to Geneva convention.

I'm not sure about that - it seems that if you understand that the intent is to surrender you have to accept it in the sense of not attacking them; but communication isn't always clear. (Waving a white flag is in particular unclear.)

However, you cannot announce that you will not accept a surrender (or give no quarter as it commonly known).

[Canpinter]

Every god damn day different civilian, PURELY CIVILIAN centers get bombed by RuZZlamists. Ones far from front lines even. Don't even try to feed this "russian civility" horseshit. RuZZian civility is rape, torture and murder of civilians.

Since Sun Tzu didn't live in the times of RuZZlamic Federation of Terrorism, allow me to redo the phrase to fit this day and age: "Always give your enemy a golden bridge to retreat on; and then fucking sink it"

Ok but you want the enemy to surrender to you because a soldier that surrenders and is treated humanly actively increases the likelihood of others surrendering as well, it's essentially a contagious behavior. Killing them however dosnt suddenly make your enemy want to die.

Plus if you have more prisoners it gives you more to bargain with in any negotiation or prisoner exchange.

[Gabriel]

I'm not sure about that - it seems that if you understand that the intent is to surrender you have to accept it in the sense of not attacking them; but communication isn't always clear. (Waving a white flag is in particular unclear.)

However, you cannot announce that you will not accept a surrender (or give no quarter as it commonly known).

Then don't look too hard for white flags with your binoculars and just shell away at their position until someone from over there comes across to inform you they have surrendered.

Though to be fair I do hope that Ukrainians treat russian prisoners of war with dignity and in accordance of international law. I just wish the rest of us soft westerners would understand that the russians won't return the favor.

If you get backstabbed by russian it was your own fault for giving them the opportunity.

[Aphelios]

It's absolutely gut-wrenching. Thoughts and prayers to everyone affected by this madness.

[Gabriel]

Ok but you want the enemy to surrender to you because a soldier that surrenders and is treated humanly actively increases the likelihood of others surrendering as well, it's essentially a contagious behavior. Killing them however dosnt suddenly make your enemy want to die.

Plus if you have more prisoners it gives you more to bargain with in any negotiation or prisoner exchange.

This kind of thinking just simply doesn't work with russians. Every act of kindness done by you is seen as weakness by them. I know this is hard for people that are not familiar with their culture to understand, but it is what it is.

And again, I reiterate, I hope russian prisoners of war are treated according to international law. I just think it is dumb to expect them to do the same to you.

[Corvus]

Reportedly, Russian recruits are being sent to the front with just days of training.

[Canpinter]

This kind of thinking just simply doesn't work with russians. Every act of kindness done by you is seen as weakness by them. I know this is hard for people that are not familiar with their culture to understand, but it is what it is.

And again, I reiterate, I hope russian prisoners of war are treated according to international law. I just think it is dumb to expect them to do the same to you.

I don't expect them to do the same to Ukrainian prisoners but my point was that l if you treat Russian prisoners well and accept surrenders you are likely to get more Russians surrendering to you rather then fighting you to the death.

[Azadina]

Ok but you want the enemy to surrender to you because a soldier that surrenders and is treated humanly actively increases the likelihood of others surrendering as well, it's essentially a contagious behavior. Killing them however dosnt suddenly make your enemy want to die.

Plus if you have more prisoners it gives you more to bargain with in any negotiation or prisoner exchange.

You want them as prisoners, so that you can trade them for the CIVILIANS that RuZZia keeps purposefully taking prisoner as bargaining stock? To get the soldiers back in action? You're playing right into their hand by engaging with their bad faith bullshitting as if it was even resembling anything honest. Not to mention it gives said terrorists a get out of jail free card after any atrocities they commit. They can rest knowing they'll just get traded back soon enough.

There's one way to be sure they're not back in rotation to rape, torture and murder anyone. I'll leave it for your imagination to guess what such a guarantee might be.

[Gabriel]

I don't expect them to do the same to Ukrainian prisoners but my point was that l if you treat Russian prisoners well and accept surrenders you are likely to get more Russians surrendering to you rather then fighting you to the death.

But do you want them to not fight to the death?

[Canpinter]

But do you want them to not fight to the death?

I mean ya? Them surrendering to you and not fighting means your alot less likely to die? Unless you really only care about killing Russians and not saving Ukrainians?

[Gabriel]

I mean ya? Them surrendering to you and not fighting means your alot less likely to die? Unless you really only care about killing Russians and not saving Ukrainians?

Taking care and guarding POVs takes a lot of manpower and resources.

[Canpinter]

Taking care and guarding POVs takes a lot of manpower and resources.

Not compared to the resources and lives that would be lost fighting then to the death. Unless your say they should accept surrenders and then secretly execute prisoners?

[Gabriel]

Not compared to the resources and lives that would be lost fighting then to the death. Unless your say they should accept surrenders and then secretly execute prisoners?

Ï never said or implied such a thing.

I said bomb their positions until someone walks over to inform you they surrender.

[zealo]

Unless the Russians starts widely taking to comitting perfidy as a means of turning attempts to ”surrender” into underhanded ambushes, there’s no good military reason to shoot people surrendering.

Gaining a reputation for that just makes your enemy harder to dislodge, if they know they’ll have a bullet put into them regardless if captured.

[Saradain]

Unless the Russians starts widely taking to comitting perfidy as a means of turning attempts to ”surrender” into underhanded ambushes, there’s no good military reason to shoot people surrendering.

Gaining a reputation for that just makes your enemy harder to dislodge, if they know they’ll have a bullet put into them regardless if captured.

I believe there was a story like this during the Winter War ie Soviets trying to annex Finland - they had lied to their own men that the finns would torture and mutilate any captured soldiers.

Until some soviets no longer could fight, and they were captured. They had their minds blown when finns offered them shelter and food and well, good conditions (whatever counted as good conditions during an apocalyptic war of annihilation). And apparently, according to the story, they spread the word and more and more soviets happily surrendered.

Of course, if I recall right, the captives were not so happy when they had to be returned back to the Soviet Union, to be executed for their failures...

That is all the world needs to know about Russia - they will take everything from you, with extreme cruelty, if you let them. There really can't be any peace with the russians, any peaceful times is just them preparing for the next war crime spree. Thankfully, the betrayal towards their own soldiers will also be their downfall. For there is only so much you can do by just throwing bodies at the enemy without training or equipment.

Oh and right, I believe Soviets used ukrainian regiments to invade Finland, because for russians, anyone not russian is a toy to be broken and discarded as they please. The cowards will not fight their own fights, and now that they actually need to, you can see their success rate - 100% war crimes, but actual military objectives will only land them on a big mess for the next decades.

[Iphie]

Oh and right, I believe Soviets used ukrainian regiments to invade Finland, because for russians, anyone not russian is a toy to be broken and discarded as they please. The cowards will not fight their own fights, and now that they actually need to, you can see their success rate - 100% war crimes, but actual military objectives will only land them on a big mess for the next decades.

Yep...you can see it right now as well, most casualties on the russian side are ethnic minorities, to the point that some have called it a hidden genocide. (They're still not exactly fighting their own battles.)