1. #22761
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.
    Russia is welcome to try. It's about time we retake Karelia.
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  2. #22762
    Putin must have died, haven't seen or heard from him in a long while.
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  3. #22763
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nobody forced Russia to do anything, and the US didn't force Ukraine to do anything. Russia could have just not invaded Ukraine.

    They didn't invade because they were "scared," they didn't invade because the US "insulted their pride," they didn't invade because they "disagreed with NATO," they invaded purely because they wanted to continue to expand Russia's borders to exploit Ukraine's resources and thought they could scare other neighboring countries out of considering NATO membership. Any other reason is dressed up lies.

    Russia's reasons for invading had nothing to do with self-preservation. It's wholly and entirely based on a dictator's wishes of recapturing the lost, failed glory of the USSR.

    As for why the US and EU are helping out? Maybe because they learned from history that dictators with delusions of grandeur seeking to expand their borders in Europe aren't happy with appeasement and that the word of said dictators isn't worth dirt, and want to stop the situation from getting worse. Imagine if Hitler had been stopped at Poland.


    In this situation, Ukraine, the US and the EU are the good guys. And if you don't like that... tell Russia not to be so terrible. There's only one country invading a sovereign nation in this situation, and it's Russia, invading Ukraine.

    Hell, if Russia "had to invade Ukraine to show NATO they aren't to be trifled with" they failed in that pretty spectacularly. Their economy is crumbling and will continue to crumble, they're sending tens of thousands of their young men off to die pointlessly while millions more have fled Russia never to return, their war resources are shot to hell, and NATO basically gets to kill Russian soldiers by giving weapons to Ukraine without imperiling a single NATO member life.

    So either Russia is malicious but incompetent in their invasion, or they're blindingly stupid. I'm going to go with some measure of both, but you seem to want to paint these war crime committing invaders as "victims of the mean ol' US" somehow.



    Russia can't muster an invasion on a country they share an extensive land border with and have all but completely stalled out after 6 months of fighting, and at no point have their logistics, supply chains, equipment, manpower or morale seen anything resembling a positive improvement.

    Who says they can attack any other country? They gonna pull the troops and resources required to invade Finland and Sweden out of thin air?
    Nah, the EU is the good guy, the US ? Not so much.

  4. #22764
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.
    Look at it this way, if Trump somehow regains the Presidency you can kiss NATO goodbye.

  5. #22765
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Look at it this way, if Trump somehow regains the Presidency you can kiss NATO goodbye.
    It seems Trump wants to do that, sure, but I doubt it's going to happen. And even if US were to leave NATO, I'd imagine rest of it's members would carry on in some form or another. And as far as Russia is concerned, it ought to be more than enough.

    And who knows, perhaps NATO might become more appealing to others without US involvement? Especially if Trump becomes the president again.
    Last edited by Santti; 2022-08-28 at 09:38 PM.
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  6. #22766
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nah, the EU is the good guy, the US ? Not so much.
    The US isn't continuing to pay Russia billions of dollars to buy energy they should have weaned themselves off of back when Russia started its expansionary crusade 8 years ago and has by far been the largest provider of military aide to Ukraine.

    So slow your roll there.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #22767
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The US isn't continuing to pay Russia billions of dollars to buy energy they should have weaned themselves off of back when Russia started its expansionary crusade 8 years ago and has by far been the largest provider of military aide to Ukraine.

    So slow your roll there.
    Yes, the US prefers to destroy its own environment to get its energy from.

    By putting pressure on Russia through NATO, the US has successfully weakened its ally, sorry its vassal, the UE.

  8. #22768
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.
    How in the blue hell did they force Russia to want to genocide a neighboring country? I'd love to hear the, what I'm sure is, totally not insane ramblings to explain that.

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  9. #22769
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Where did I say they would attack a NATO country?
    Wtf? Finland and Sweden are joining NATO. It has already been approved, right now it is just semantics.

  10. #22770
    Warchief Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Putin must have died, haven't seen or heard from him in a long while.
    Nah, he's still signing stuff...which could obviously be a forgery. It would certainly be in the best interest of the russians to keep it quiet until the power struggle is done, but after Stalin it took 4 years and russia doesn't have that time in Ukraine.

  11. #22771
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, the US prefers to destroy its own environment to get its energy from.
    So the EU is doing the right thing by... destroying the environment elsewhere?

    By putting pressure on Russia through NATO, the US has successfully weakened its ally, sorry its vassal, the UE.
    I really don't understand this "The US made Russia do it" revisionism. Well, outside of mindlessly hating on the US.


    NATO and the US posed no existential threat to Russia. They did not want to invade. They did not want to conquer Russia. They were fully content with letting it sit as its own little third-world despot state. Now I recognize that situation was also advantageous for the EU to take advantage of and that this war that Russia started is disadvantageous to EU's reliance on them. But maybe you should blame that on... Russia, when it chose to invade Ukraine.

    I think it likely that the US learned that whenever shit goes down in Europe they have to end up fixing it anyway, so better to nip it in the bud early on.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #22772
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So the EU is doing the right thing by... destroying the environment elsewhere?



    I really don't understand this "The US made Russia do it" revisionism. Well, outside of mindlessly hating on the US.


    NATO and the US posed no existential threat to Russia. They did not want to invade. They did not want to conquer Russia. They were fully content with letting it sit as its own little third-world despot state. Now I recognize that situation was also advantageous for the EU to take advantage of and that this war that Russia started is disadvantageous to EU's reliance on them. But maybe you should blame that on... Russia, when it chose to invade Ukraine.

    I think it likely that the US learned that whenever shit goes down in Europe they have to end up fixing it anyway, so better to nip it in the bud early on.
    The EU is doing the right thing by reducing its dependencies and overall consumption and pollution. Still waiting for the US to comeback into Paris accord.

    And if you think that an organization created to counter you is not seen as a threat, especially by a paranoid state like Russia. You are in a for a disillusion. And the US did all they could to pour more fuel on the fire, and did nothing to deescalate the situation. Obviously, Russia is the most to blame in all this, but the US had a part to play in all that as well.

  13. #22773
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation,
    Forced wtf? Big wife beater vibes here.

    Tell me, what do you think would have happened if ruSSia did not invade?

  14. #22774
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    The EU is doing the right thing by reducing its dependencies and overall consumption and pollution. Still waiting for the US to comeback into Paris accord.
    And the US is waiting on the EU to stop sending billions of dollars to Russia.

    Funny show shit like that works, isn't it.

    [
    And if you think that an organization created to counter you is not seen as a threat, especially by a paranoid state like Russia.
    Of course Russia needs containment.

    It just invaded a neighboring country.

    And what other sovereign countries do, willingly, within their own borders and the treaties they make isn't up for Russia to decide or, frankly, have any input in.

    That Russia's understanding of the geopolitical situation is misinformed and paranoid is nobody's fault but Russia.

    You are in a for a disillusion. And the US did all they could to pour more fuel on the fire, and did nothing to deescalate the situation. Obviously, Russia is the most to blame in all this, but the US had a part to play in all that as well.
    The "deescalation" for Russia is to get the fuck out of Ukraine. Its first step of not escalating things was to not invade Ukraine.

    The US had no role in either of those things happening.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #22775
    The Lightbringer bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    The EU is doing the right thing by reducing its dependencies and overall consumption and pollution. Still waiting for the US to comeback into Paris accord.

    And if you think that an organization created to counter you is not seen as a threat, especially by a paranoid state like Russia. You are in a for a disillusion. And the US did all they could to pour more fuel on the fire, and did nothing to deescalate the situation. Obviously, Russia is the most to blame in all this, but the US had a part to play in all that as well.
    WTF are you on about you bellend? When Russia annexed Crimea there was no US intervention or escalation. There is no one anywhere to blame for Russian actions besides Russia.

  16. #22776
    It is little wonder that Trumpers and Russians get along so well, given how they are both believers in crazy conspiracies.

    Just the other day, a 64 year old Russian women set on fire the BMW owned by the Deputy Chief of the Russian Armed Forces. In Moscow. Nice and toasty. Russian state TV came out with a completely insane conspiracy about it - apparently Ukrainian special forces kidnapped her, hypnotised her and taught her how to set fires to cars. If you believe that you'd believe the election was stolen.

  17. #22777
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    It is little wonder that Trumpers and Russians get along so well, given how they are both believers in crazy conspiracies.

    Just the other day, a 64 year old Russian women set on fire the BMW owned by the Deputy Chief of the Russian Armed Forces. In Moscow. Nice and toasty. Russian state TV came out with a completely insane conspiracy about it - apparently Ukrainian special forces kidnapped her, hypnotised her and taught her how to set fires to cars. If you believe that you'd believe the election was stolen.
    They have to downplay the increasing danger that the average Russian faces and try and upkeep the supposed notion of "Russian solidarity against Ukraine."

    The likely actual story of "Russian woman who has grown discontent with the war destroys Russian military head's car in protest" both 1) makes Russians afraid for their own personal property, knowing that anyone around them might be like this and 2) lets them know that others within Russia might share their discontent with the war.

    So instead they had to pivot to "Random woman kidnapped and forced by Ukrainians" which instead 1) makes this seem like a one-off fluke and 2) this was someone acting alone, against what the Russian people want and believe.

    Of course they're also implying that 3) Ukraine possesses the ability to reach into Russia, kidnap people, and brainwash them.


    It's like when they claimed that ship sunk in a "storm" rather than because it was attacked by Ukraine. Even the lie makes either Russia look incompetent or Ukraine look powerful.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #22778
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    And if you think that an organization created to counter you is not seen as a threat, especially by a paranoid state like Russia. You are in a for a disillusion. And the US did all they could to pour more fuel on the fire, and did nothing to deescalate the situation. Obviously, Russia is the most to blame in all this, but the US had a part to play in all that as well.
    So instead of buddying up to your neighbors to use as a buffer or a dissenting voice amongst the enemy if they do join the "enemy" you try invading and taking it over thereby expanding your boarder and moving nato/whatever closer to your border? That doesn't make any sense. Putin saw the world didn't give a shit before and thought he could get some free shit. He doesn't actually believe that black magic drugged up super soldiers, natural disasters, master mentalists, nazis, and secret US labs are actually the problem its just shit he says as an excuse just like Nato is an excuse.

  19. #22779
    Standard fascism - the enemy is both strong and weak at the same time.

    Not sure how making the Russian security services look even more inept helps though. Here you have Ukrainian agents allegedly wandering free through Moscow with their swastika flags and copies of Sims 3, kidnapping people or blowing them up and the Russians cant stop them.

  20. #22780
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.
    Do try to keep up with the news if you're going to post about world events will you?

    Sweden and Finland are already effectively under the NATO umbrella in any time frame relevant to Russia's ability (or inability at present, rather, with how they're currently bogged down in a near-peer war) to attack the Nordic region, with the accession protocols already having been voted on and approved by the member states nearly 2 months ago now, and then having been ratified by 23 out of 30 member states already as bureaucracy does it's thing.

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