Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Corvus]

I'll be getting a copy, even if I don't play it.

More on the Amnesty debacle. The head of amnesty in Ukraine has resigned in protest, but before doing so released a scathing post. Basically Amnesty completely ignored the Ukrainian branch, not even consulting with them on what actually was taking place on the ground.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sumlenny/...80431561560064

[zorkuus]

The reason is that they'd be annihilated in open country outside of heavy residential areas. There are sound military reasons for it.

But it gets civilians killed and hospitals/schools blown up.

The invaders should've thought about that and this whole situation would have been avoided. If Ukrainians for example want to execute captured orcs then I'd give them the right to. ruZZia can suck it

[Canpinter]

The invaders should've thought about that and this whole situation would have been avoided. If Ukrainians for example want to execute captured orcs then I'd give them the right to. ruZZia can suck it

Putting aside the moral issues of killing people that have surrender, its just a really stupid idea tactically. You WANT the Russians to surrender to the Ukrainian forces and executing prisoners makes that a lot less likely.

[zorkuus]

Putting aside the moral issues of killing people that have surrender, its just a really stupid idea tactically. You WANT the Russians to surrender to the Ukrainian forces and executing prisoners makes that a lot less likely.

The russki troops are already being fed all sorts of crazy propaganda about how Ukrainians would treat them, so it probably would not even make a huge difference.

[Huehuecoyotl]

The invaders should've thought about that and this whole situation would have been avoided. If Ukrainians for example want to execute captured orcs then I'd give them the right to. ruZZia can suck it

No, I'm sorry. If they want to commit war-crimes, then expect the rest of the world to react appropriately once this is all over. With trials and punishments.

Russia invading gives them the right to defend themselves, and the rest of the free world is providing all the support they can in that fight. But it doesn't give them the right to commit the same atrocities that the Russians are committing. This is how you end up with more and more people saying "should we really be supporting Ukraine? THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE RUSSIANS".

They need to act like human beings in this war. Not like orcs. Which means fighting, sure. Killing, absolutely. But handling captured prisoners in the way described under the Geneva Convention. That moral high ground is going to be important, politically, in the years that follows Russia losing and being kicked out of the country. And as Canpinter said, it's important tactically too. Treat prisoners well, make sure the news of that gets spread far and wide. Start the whispers in the ears of the Russian conscripts; "the other side would treat you better than your side does....why would you not surrender?"

[Corvus]

While a load if dead ruscists wouldn't be mourned, hundreds or even thousands of half starved demoralised ruskis being marched off into captivity would be much better for optics and propaganda and would really shock the Russian public.

[Kaleredar]

While a load if dead ruscists wouldn't be mourned, hundreds or even thousands of half starved demoralised ruskis being marched off into captivity would be much better for optics and propaganda and would really shock the Russian public.

I doubt they'd ever hear about it. If Russia's official stance on that ship was sunk was that it sunk in some sort of storm on a perfectly clear day and they only lost a single sailor when all other accounts say that it was sank by Ukraine with nearly all lives lost, then clearly whatever actually happens and whether it's even believable or not isn't very important to Russian propaganda. I imagine in your scenario that the Russian propaganda machine would say that either Ukraine had been unable to take any Russians as prisoner to show how weak Ukraine is, or that Ukraine had killed them all to show how merciless they are and that Russia needs to fight harder. Russian optics are driven by a narrative that they don't "twist" the truth to fit, they just wholesale make it up.

All of that to say, I'm still not for killing Russian PoWs. The point is not to "show your enemy mercy so that they think better of you" that people have countered with "Russians view mercy as weakness." You don't do it "hoping that the Russians abide by the same rules," to be countered with "they do no such thing because they brutally murder Ukrainian PoWs." All of those things may indeed be true, but you do it because you're better than the Russians. And whatever Russia thinks of you for doing it is immaterial, because what Russia thinks aint worth jack shit.

[Voidism]

I doubt they'd ever hear about it. If Russia's official stance on that ship was sunk was that it sunk in some sort of storm on a perfectly clear day and they only lost a single sailor when all other accounts say that it was sank by Ukraine with nearly all lives lost, then clearly whatever actually happens and whether it's even believable or not isn't very important to Russian propaganda. I imagine in your scenario that the Russian propaganda machine would say that either Ukraine had been unable to take any Russians as prisoner to show how weak Ukraine is, or that Ukraine had killed them all to show how merciless they are and that Russia needs to fight harder. Russian optics are driven by a narrative that they don't "twist" the truth to fit, they just wholesale make it up.

All of that to say, I'm still not for killing Russian PoWs. The point is not to "show your enemy mercy so that they think better of you" that people have countered with "Russians view mercy as weakness." You don't do it "hoping that the Russians abide by the same rules," to be countered with "they do no such thing because they brutally murder Ukrainian PoWs." All of those things may indeed be true, but you do it because you're better than the Russians. And whatever Russia thinks of you for doing it is immaterial, because what Russia thinks aint worth jack shit.

I think you underestimate how much Russians know. The problem is that they don't care. They have been "amoralized" and "untruthed" by Putin over the years, effectively making them into psychopaths. They want to be bottoms for Putin. That's the only thing they care about. "I'm not political" is the same as supporting this genocide.

[Gabriel]

I think you underestimate how much Russians know. The problem is that they don't care. They have been "amoralized" and "untruthed" by Putin over the years, effectively making them into psychopaths. They want to be bottoms for Putin. That's the only thing they care about. "I'm not political" is the same as supporting this genocide.

He isn't wrong tho. russian POWs should be treated with all the dignity granted to them by international law, regardless of how russians treat their own POWs.

Now, you don't exactly have to check in with the russian invaders you are bombing or shooting every 5 minutes to see if they have surrendered already. Might as well continue until they get to you to do the surrendering in person.

[Voidism]

He isn't wrong tho. russian POWs should be treated with all the dignity granted to them by international law, regardless of how russians treat their own POWs.

Now, you don't exactly have to check in with the russian invaders you are bombing or shooting every 5 minutes to see if they have surrendered already. Might as well continue until they get to you to do the surrendering in person.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. There're plenty of good Russians out there, and we need to be better. I'm just saying you won't change Russian's mind overall on the subject of stopping the genocide by doing that.

[Fantomen]

Russia shown plenty of this "might" during their inept Ukraine invasion. Entire world was watching. Regardless, not sure if China is even considering any move like that. What would they gain from it? Peaceful, willing Russia vassalization is ongoing anyway.

It do not show might, it show weakness, Russia is trying as hard as they can and it still a stalmate. What will China gain? What did Russia gain by move the border in Georgian and Krimera? Then peaceful vassalization was a possibility.

No I do not think China will do somthing, they have their own internal problems, but I did not think Russsia would invade either.

[Gabriel]

Oh, I definitely agree with that. There're plenty of good Russians out there, and we need to be better. I'm just saying you won't change Russian's mind overall on the subject of stopping the genocide by doing that.

I know, and I agree. What the russians think doesn't matter, this is really an issue of how we see ourselves. How we treat our worst enemies is not a reflection of them, but a reflection of us.

[Gorsameth]

I think you underestimate how much Russians know. The problem is that they don't care. They have been "amoralized" and "untruthed" by Putin over the years, effectively making them into psychopaths. They want to be bottoms for Putin. That's the only thing they care about. "I'm not political" is the same as supporting this genocide.

Russians have basically lived under a dictatorship and been oppressed for so long that resistance has been effectively beaten out of them. They know the government is full of shit, but what are you going to do about it when speaking up ends up with you in a Siberian prison camp. So they just shrug and bear it, because from their point of view they have no other option.

[Gabriel]

Russians have basically lived under a dictatorship and been oppressed for so long that resistance has been effectively beaten out of them. They know the government is full of shit, but what are you going to do about it when speaking up ends up with you in a Siberian prison camp. So they just shrug and bear it, because from their point of view they have no other option.

You are partly right. russia is essentially the largest eugenics project in the world, where Stalin began a process of killing of all the people capable of independent thought and resistance to authority. The part you are mistaken is that they are some poor oppressed people. No, the end result of Stalin's little project is a nation of people that actively seek to be oppressed by a strongman and view lies and deceit not as vices, but as virtues.

If you had a magical button that when pressed made Putin and the entire russian government magically disappear, the russian people would would just build the exact same system again.

[Gorsameth]

You are partly right. russia is essentially the largest eugenics project in the world, where Stalin began a process of killing of all the people capable of independent thought and resistance to authority. The part you are mistaken is that they are some poor oppressed people. No, the end result of Stalin's little project is a nation of people that actively seek to be oppressed by a strongman and view lies and deceit not as vices, but as virtues.

If you had a magical button that when pressed made Putin and the entire russian government magically disappear, the russian people would would just build the exact same system again.

Because they have never known anything else. Its not different (almost) every other dictatorship that suddenly gains freedom and runs right back into another dictatorship. Democratic ideals need time to take root and decades upon decades of political indoctrination don't just disappear overnight.

[zealo]

While Russia is in no state to respond to it, it will be "interesting" how Turkey reacts.

By cheering Azerbaijan on, most likely, if that spirals into a war.

Turkish relations with Armenia are frosty at best despite normalisation attempts in recent time.

[Iphie]

Because they have never known anything else. Its not different (almost) every other dictatorship that suddenly gains freedom and runs right back into another dictatorship. Democratic ideals need time to take root and decades upon decades of political indoctrination don't just disappear overnight.

Exactly, as Lebed said:

“I am a Soviet man, and Yeltsin is a Soviet man - maybe our grandchildren will be different.”
-- Alexander Lebed

I take that to mean that at least 2 generations of democratic reforms would be needed before democracy could reign unchallenged in the Former, now hard on its way to Neo, USSR.

[Draco-Onis]

Exactly, as Lebed said:

“I am a Soviet man, and Yeltsin is a Soviet man - maybe our grandchildren will be different.”
-- Alexander Lebed

I take that to mean that at least 2 generations of democratic reforms would be needed before democracy could reign unchallenged in the Former, now hard on its way to Neo, USSR.

I think two generation is being too optimistic slow changes towards democracy is the key to success. In almost every case where democracy has been forced upon the populace it ends in disaster when the people who forced it leave the country to its own devices.

[Iphie]

I think two generation is being too optimistic slow changes towards democracy is the key to success. In almost every case where democracy has been forced upon the populace it ends in disaster when the people who forced it leave the country to its own devices.

Hence the "at least", I was however recently reminded of Chile and how their transition from dictatorship to democracy has been remarkable and they now stand out as a very healthy democracy in South America on par with Europe and North America. So it can be done relatively quickly.

[Draco-Onis]

Hence the "at least", I was however recently reminded of Chile and how their transition from dictatorship to democracy has been remarkable and they now stand out as a very healthy democracy in South America on par with Europe and North America. So it can be done relatively quickly.

Chile is different because Pinochet overthrew a democratically elected government with the help of the US government who kept him in power. The seed of their democracy was there previously and it's not popularity that kept their dictator in power.