Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

"Well, looks like Putin's getting his stool pushed in, and my guys raped and raped while we were there. I better disappear before War Crimes officially get levied against me."

Pretty much my response. Also, him leaving may open up the way for a new Chechen rebellion...

[Gorsameth]

Can't be peace without Crimea and the rest also liberated.

Ukraine most likely never expected to get Crimea back after Russia annexed it.
Ukraine is suffering make no mistake. Its acceptable because they are fighting for survival but it makes no sense to keep that suffering going if Russia withdraws beyond the post Crimea annexation border (and by this I count the 'republics' are having been defeated/surrendering and belonging to Ukraine). Their fight for survival would be over and they could focus on EU/NATO protection to keep them safe in the future.

[Saradain]

Ukraine most likely never expected to get Crimea back after Russia annexed it.
Ukraine is suffering make no mistake. Its acceptable because they are fighting for survival but it makes no sense to keep that suffering going if Russia withdraws beyond the post Crimea annexation border (and by this I count the 'republics' are having been defeated/surrendering and belonging to Ukraine). Their fight for survival would be over and they could focus on EU/NATO protection to keep them safe in the future.

Ukraine has been able to control the water flow (for irrigation) to Crimea all these years, and that region will keep having the same suffering until Russia vacates the premises. Crimea never did legally join Russia, hence why it still is Ukraine. Yielding that to Russia officially would look really fucking bad, letting the unhinged rogue state freely do this shit over and over again, piece by piece.

[enigma77]

Ukraine most likely never expected to get Crimea back after Russia annexed it.
Ukraine is suffering make no mistake. Its acceptable because they are fighting for survival but it makes no sense to keep that suffering going if Russia withdraws beyond the post Crimea annexation border (and by this I count the 'republics' are having been defeated/surrendering and belonging to Ukraine). Their fight for survival would be over and they could focus on EU/NATO protection to keep them safe in the future.

Yielding Crimea to the Russians is the same as surrender.

The Russian state must be defeated and humiliated, utterly.

[Gorsameth]

Ukraine has been able to control the water flow (for irrigation) to Crimea all these years, and that region will keep having the same suffering until Russia vacates the premises. Crimea never did legally join Russia, hence why it still is Ukraine. Yielding that to Russia officially would look really fucking bad, letting the unhinged rogue state freely do this shit over and over again, piece by piece.

If they are strong enough they are free to do so.
Make absolutely no mistake, if Russia didn't get greedy and instead of trying to take all of Ukraine mere took the 2 'Republicans' the entire world would have let them get away with it. Just as they got away with taking Crimea.

We like to pretend the world is different now but its still very much the case that the strong get to do whatever they can get away with.

[enigma77]

that the strong get to do whatever they can get away with.

Russia is not strong.

They are a state of thugs and gangsters. And they're about to be defeated by a nation they supposedly dwarf in terms of military and economics. And they are going to lose their ill-gotten gains. All of them.

Then they're going to stew in their shame and humiliation and hopefully turn on each other, like the mongrels they are.

[Saradain]

If they are strong enough they are free to do so.
Make absolutely no mistake, if Russia didn't get greedy and instead of trying to take all of Ukraine mere took the 2 'Republicans' the entire world would have let them get away with it. Just as they got away with taking Crimea.

We like to pretend the world is different now but its still very much the case that the strong get to do whatever they can get away with.

It seems like the perfect time for change, then. Russia is the prime example what happens when you let an unhinged rogue state to act like they wish. Dismantle it all!

We got a good thing going with sanctions and desperate trolls trying to pass it off as nothing, let's not relent until they crumble.

[Gorsameth]

Russia is not strong.

They are a state of thugs and gangsters. And they're about to be defeated by a nation they supposedly dwarf in terms of military and economics. And they are going to lose their ill-gotten gains. All of them.

your missing an * there.

*Supported by much of the First world in aid.

Look, I want Russia defeated and humiliated. I want Crimea back to Ukraine. I want Putin gone.
But that doesn't mean that it isn't entirely reasonable for Ukraine to accept a full Russian withdraw to post-Crimea borders.

[Gabriel]

Ukraine most likely never expected to get Crimea back after Russia annexed it.
Ukraine is suffering make no mistake. Its acceptable because they are fighting for survival but it makes no sense to keep that suffering going if Russia withdraws beyond the post Crimea annexation border (and by this I count the 'republics' are having been defeated/surrendering and belonging to Ukraine). Their fight for survival would be over and they could focus on EU/NATO protection to keep them safe in the future.

Nah. EU and USA should offer to fund the Ukrainian war effort until all invading forces have been destroyed, all areas including Crimea returned to Ukraine, or Putin agreeing to step down from a hospital window.

[Gorsameth]

Nah. EU and USA should offer to fund the Ukrainian war effort until all invading forces have been destroyed, all areas including Crimea returned to Ukraine, or Putin agreeing to step down from a hospital window.

Stop thinking in 'should' for a moment and ask what they would realistically do.

[Kaleredar]

Stop thinking in 'should' for a moment and ask what they would realistically do.

Right now the US is basically sitting pretty through all this. They're waging a proxy war on Russia, but unlike in the USSR days Russia doesn't have a proxy of its own; it's just Russians being blown up by American arms fired by Ukrainian forces. The US' reliance on Russian resources is fairly negligible, and they've really no reason to reverse course on the sanctions on Russia or on continuing to arm Ukraine.

The EU is another story, but if they're committed to and actively working on freeing themselves from Russian energy dependency and can do so in a timely fashion then I see no reason why their support for Ukraine should falter either.

[Gabriel]

Stop thinking in 'should' for a moment and ask what they would realistically do.

Literally the same. Ukrainians seem to be willing to go the whole way, and the EU and US should help them do that.

[Forogil]

Don't forget that a significant portion of Ukranians do speak russian, just like in Finland where there will be news sources only in Swedish, there will be sources in only in russian in Ukraine.

Well, due to the invasion the case that is now changing to "A significant portion of Ukranians spoke Russian."

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...n-a-new-tongue

And to lighten the mood, a joke doing the rounds from the article: Two old Odessites meet and one of them suddenly starts speaking in Ukrainian:

‘What’s the matter?’ asks his friend. ‘Are you afraid of Ukrainian nationalists?’ ‘No,’ he replies. ‘I’m afraid to speak Russian—in case Putin thinks he needs to liberate me.’

[Breccia]

Remember those bonuses Russia was paying for people to fight in Ukraine?

They're not paying it.

The United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence said in an intelligence update on Sunday that Russian forces in Ukraine have likely not received combat bonuses, hampering morale.

“Russian forces continue to suffer from morale and discipline issues in Ukraine,” the ministry said in a Twitter thread. “In addition to combat fatigue and high casualties, one of the main grievances from deployed Russian soldiers probably continues to be problems with their pay.”

It said that Russian troops receive a modest salary and a variety of bonuses and allowances, noting the combat bonuses have not been paid since the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine.

“This is probably due to inefficient military bureaucracy, the unusual legal status of the ‘special military operation’, and at least some outright corruption amongst commanders,” the ministry said.

It added that Russia’s military has failed to provide deployed troops with “basic entitlements” such as appropriate uniforms, arms and rations, contributing to the military’s current “fragile morale.”

There are soooooo many reasons this is such an enormous mistake.

1) The easiest way to get troops to stop fighting for you, besides them dying, is to not pay them.
2) The easiest way to stop people from signing up for your army, is to stop paying your current troops. That'll make enlistment dry up like a Texas summer.
3) If, as the British suggest, the bonuses are being stolen by Russian commanders, then the oil execs better make room on the sidewalk for the next batch of window whoopsies, as Putin puts on a new music video for It's Raining Men.

We know Russia's not doing great. That's not the problem. The problem is when Russia finds out Russia's not doing great. How many people will see their brother, husband or son sent off to war for pay, that isn't paid, before the population decides Ukraine isn't really the enemy here? I know they're brainwashed (has anyone seen our favorite slacker recently?) but at this point, it should be clear Ukraine isn't the one murdering them. Ukraine's just sitting over there wanting to be Ukraine. Russia's the one trying to murder Russians.

[Gorsameth]

Remember those bonuses Russia was paying for people to fight in Ukraine?

They're not paying it.

I am shocked. absolutely shocked by this. Never could have seen it coming....
/s

[Iphie]

Well, due to the invasion the case that is now changing to "A significant portion of Ukranians spoke Russian."

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...n-a-new-tongue

And to lighten the mood, a joke doing the rounds from the article: Two old Odessites meet and one of them suddenly starts speaking in Ukrainian:

I chuckled ^_^

and, yes, I understand it's *spoke* russian, but there will always be those that remain. (not a problem of course.)

Remember those bonuses Russia was paying for people to fight in Ukraine?

They're not paying it.



There are soooooo many reasons this is such an enormous mistake.

1) The easiest way to get troops to stop fighting for you, besides them dying, is to not pay them.
2) The easiest way to stop people from signing up for your army, is to stop paying your current troops. That'll make enlistment dry up like a Texas summer.
3) If, as the British suggest, the bonuses are being stolen by Russian commanders, then the oil execs better make room on the sidewalk for the next batch of window whoopsies, as Putin puts on a new music video for It's Raining Men.

We know Russia's not doing great. That's not the problem. The problem is when Russia finds out Russia's not doing great. How many people will see their brother, husband or son sent off to war for pay, that isn't paid, before the population decides Ukraine isn't really the enemy here? I know they're brainwashed (has anyone seen our favorite slacker recently?) but at this point, it should be clear Ukraine isn't the one murdering them. Ukraine's just sitting over there wanting to be Ukraine. Russia's the one trying to murder Russians.

Ad.3 I'm not sure if that's the play for putin, I mean that would be a brilliant way to alienate the army and I don't think the Rosgvardiya can stand up to them, if only because they're in the same boat as the army with pay. (not to mention that they aren't really motivated either anymore.)

[postman1782]

Russia wanting to end this war is really easy. call a full withdraw and retreat beyond the Feb border.

Done. Peace achieved.

They should give Crimea back too. Hell, they should lose more territory just like they did when the Soviet Union broke up.

[Iphie]

They should give Crimea back too. Hell, they should lose more territory just like they did when the Soviet Union broke up.

Return Crimea, yes, though that may perhaps need to be done by negotiations, and that requires stopping shooting at each other. Which I think Gorsameth means. Occupying parts of russia, or taking parts of russia that were not previously part of Ukraine...no, just no.

[Flarelaine]

Russia wanting to end this war is really easy. call a full withdraw and retreat beyond the Feb border.

Done. Peace achieved.

I hope you meant "internationally recognised border".

[Corvus]

Return Crimea, yes, though that may perhaps need to be done by negotiations, and that requires stopping shooting at each other. Which I think Gorsameth means. Occupying parts of russia, or taking parts of russia that were not previously part of Ukraine...no, just no.

I think he was more talking about the de-colonisation of Russia than Ukraine occupying parts of it. Give all the oppressed and exploited minorities in Russia their freedom.

- - - Updated - - -

The Kremlin is saying that the full resumption of gas supplies through NS1 will not take place until the 'collective west' lifts sanctions on Moscow over its invasion of Ukraine.