1. #23001
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Can add dutch and british tourists to that reasoning too.
    To be fair I bet you could say that for most tourists. (and yes, I try to avoid fellow dutchies like the plague when on holiday.)

  2. #23002
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    While that is true, getting that political refugee status is much more complex.
    And it's also a matter of timing - you would normally get on the Russian government's kill list inside Russia, and then try to leave Russia to seek asylum elsewhere.

    I can see that such a plan back-fires, and I doubt that you can hope to get the treatment of Solzhenitzyn (or however you transcribe his name nowadays) and be expelled from Russia.

  3. #23003
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    To be fair I bet you could say that for most tourists. (and yes, I try to avoid fellow dutchies like the plague when on holiday.)
    Same hahaha.. I can see it straight away: beer in hand, no proper clothing, run around in speedos/swimming gear, super loud = many times a dutchie.

  4. #23004
    One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

    Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)

  5. #23005
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

    Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)
    The russian people that don't overthrow Putin and his buddies are just as guilty for what is happening in Ukraine right now.

  6. #23006
    Epic! Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

    Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)
    Wholeheartedly agree and those saying: "those who don't stand up against putin are just as guilty" have perhaps a skewed view on what can be done right now.

  7. #23007
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Wholeheartedly agree and those saying: "those who don't stand up against putin are just as guilty" have perhaps a skewed view on what can be done right now.
    The least the common russian can do in times like these is to enjoy the hospitality of their own country that according to them is superior to others anyway.

  8. #23008
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The russian people that don't overthrow Putin and his buddies are just as guilty for what is happening in Ukraine right now.
    So die or be a murderer in your eyes. What a psychopath.

  9. #23009
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    So die or be a murderer in your eyes. What a psychopath.
    That is a choise we all have. You can't force someone to be a murderer against their own will.

  10. #23010
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That is a choise we all have. You can't force someone to be a murderer against their own will.
    Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

    Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.

  11. #23011
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

    Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.
    Nonsense. The people are responsible for their governments, whether they chose them or not. They have the power, if they're too afraid or too comfortable to do anything they are complicit all the same. Weakness, cowardice or stupidity are no excuse.

    When your government does something awful and evil and you do not attempt to stop it, you and everyone in your family are guilty. Evil is enabled by good people who do nothing. That is why when American forces liberated concentration camps they forced the populations of nearby towns to see the corpses of the people their government murdered while they stood by and pretended to know nothing.

    So yes, in no uncertain terms, all Russians are guilty. Except those who actually do something to stop their nefarious government.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-08-12 at 05:20 PM.

  12. #23012
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

    Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.
    If you think denying visas for tourists as a way to pressure the russian government is inhumane, you are just flat out stupid. Simple as.

  13. #23013
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Seeking asylum in the rest of Europe is always an option for Russians that are at serious risk of persecution inside of Russia, having straight up vacations in the rest of Europe is a luxury they do not deserve so long as their political apathy enables the Russian state to carry on like this.

  14. #23014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If you think denying visas for tourists as a way to pressure the russian government is inhumane, you are just flat out stupid. Simple as.
    Hey, if 80% Russian households have plumbing, then maybe it is inhumane?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  15. #23015
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Nonsense. The people are responsible for their governments, whether they chose them or not. They have the power, if they're too afraid or too comfortable to do anything they are complicit all the same. Weakness, cowardice or stupidity are no excuse.
    Why stop at just their own country's government? Why not apply this logic to the entire world and every one of its horrible issues? Why isn't everyone everywhere just constantly risking their own life/happiness at basically all times to stop this type of behavior? Why are you not over there right now fighting this tyranny? I mean apparently normal people have the power to change this type of stuff pretty easily without any risk of harm to self?

    /s

  16. #23016
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why stop at just their own country's government? Why not apply this logic to the entire world and every one of its horrible issues? Why isn't everyone everywhere just constantly risking their own life/happiness at basically all times to stop this type of behavior? Why are you not over there right now fighting this tyranny? I mean apparently normal people have the power to change this type of stuff pretty easily without any risk of harm to self?

    /s
    So here's the thing: this already happened a good 30 years ago all over eastern Europe. Nobody said it's easy. But to let ruSSians off the hook and say "well they'd be imprisoned for speaking up and it doesn't change a thing"... nope we all seen that it is possible to topple the whole fucking eastern block if the peoples want to.

    And it's not only eastern EU 30 years ago, the Vietnam war was also stopped by a people having had enough of it. Sure in a democracy, but they were also jailed and beaten in the beginning.

  17. #23017
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

    Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.
    My sympathy for the average Russian vanished after the atrocities in Bucha came to light.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  18. #23018
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Why stop at just their own country's government? Why not apply this logic to the entire world and every one of its horrible issues? Why isn't everyone everywhere just constantly risking their own life/happiness at basically all times to stop this type of behavior? Why are you not over there right now fighting this tyranny? I mean apparently normal people have the power to change this type of stuff pretty easily without any risk of harm to self?

    /s
    Nobody has ever claimed it would be easy or painless for the Russian people to bring change to Russia.

    That however doesn't mean the rest of this continent shouldn't be doing what it can to nudge them into taking that step, we've had over 30 years of Russians having the chance of reconciling with their own past while enjoying relatively open relations with the rest of Europe, and it's still lead up to this. Instead, Russia is now embracing fascism on a wider scale.

  19. #23019
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Nonsense. The people are responsible for their governments, whether they chose them or not. They have the power, if they're too afraid or too comfortable to do anything they are complicit all the same. Weakness, cowardice or stupidity are no excuse.

    When your government does something awful and evil and you do not attempt to stop it, you and everyone in your family are guilty. Evil is enabled by good people who do nothing. That is why when American forces liberated concentration camps they forced the populations of nearby towns to see the corpses of the people their government murdered while they stood by and pretended to know nothing.

    So yes, in no uncertain terms, all Russians are guilty. Except those who actually do something to stop their nefarious government.
    where are you from so we can flame you for things your gov does?

    Travel ban for russian holiday makers is fine.

  20. #23020
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I mean, that only really worked in WW2 because Germany was fighting a two-front war and had unwisely chosen to pursue Russia into the Russian heartland during a crushing winter.
    Also American aid was pouring into Russia back then, no matter how they try to downplay it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Turkey has been building (very successfully) a pan Turkic group for a while now cosying up to the central asian republics plus Azerbaijan. This has actually been one of the smart things the country has been doing and one of the reasons central asia is slipping out of Russia's influence over the past few years. (It's going slow but I think it's more the whole slow boil a frog thing and being done deliberately that way)

    Generally I'm more surprised the PRC hasn't been pushing harder into the region, basically as a boss move to Putin telling him that it's China's hemesphere now not Russia's, I know Xi wants cordial relations but at the same time China does want its own sphere of influence too and there are many resources to be exploited in the area.
    It is too easy to remind those Turkic/Muslim 'stans in Central Asia just what China is doing to their own Turkic/Muslim minority.

    They will deal with China, but I suspect they might not want to get too cosy.

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