Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Skulltaker]

Wow. Be a mod. Not an antagonist. Why the hell would I ship out? That doesnt even make sense.

Nothing you say makes sense, so doing something in that lane is a reasonable expectation.

holy shit. i am NOT cheering on conflicts. hell, i bring up civil war in america for the purposes of trying to find solutions to AVOID war. stop trolling. maybe you should ship out to ukraine if you want to battle people on the internet for no reason.

Holy shit. Yes, you are. And you'd be the first one to sit in a corner sobbing and shitting yourself if you'd actually be in one of those civil wars you so desperately crave.

[Azadina]

All previous sanctions were considered hard enough to deter him. It was pointless to implement them otherwise.

Why would you expect new ones to finally work?

Nope, if you want to seriously deter him it means war.

And noone is ready for nuclear war - or trust their diplomats to hold it below that level.

Are you saying Russia is indeed so fucked up, that any scale of war is immediately going for the nuclear holocaust option? This is your honest take on Russia, as Russian?

[uuuhname]

holy shit. i am NOT cheering on conflicts. hell, i bring up civil war in america for the purposes of trying to find solutions to AVOID war. stop trolling. maybe you should ship out to ukraine if you want to battle people on the internet for no reason.

dude, we can look back though your posts and find when you literally said killing Democrats is going to be necessary at some point... this idea you right wingers have where people have the memory spans of goldfish only applies to your side.

[Skulltaker]

i feel like i can almost see edge or whomever right at this moment rummaging thru my old posts so they can misconstrue something i said as being pro war or something instead of asking for clarification.

If you feel what you say needs clarification maybe you should spend more time thinking about what it is, exactly, that you want to say, don't you think? If you're expecting to be misunderstood you're clearly the problem.

[Edge-]

i feel like i can almost see edge or whomever right at this moment rummaging thru my old posts

I hate to break it to you, but random posters on the internet just aren't that important to me.

[wunksta]

I don't understand what Biden's hold up is with rolling out sanctions. Why weren't sanctions pre-planned and ready to roll out immediately as a response?

[Calfredd]

again, what the fuck are you talking about? Stop making things up and asserting them on me unless you just want to piss people off. i swear this forum is hypertoxic.

Would help if there weren't hypertoxic posters *cough*

[Edge-]

I don't understand what Biden's hold up is with rolling out sanctions. Why weren't sanctions pre-planned and ready to roll out immediately as a response?

IIRC the Legislature. There was quibbling over pre-emptively sanctioning vs. waiting and I forget where we stand now.

[Okacz]

I don't understand what Biden's hold up is with rolling out sanctions. Why weren't sanctions pre-planned and ready to roll out immediately as a response?

They must have. Why would the act as if they did not is a slightly more scary question.

[Shalcker]

Are you saying Russia is indeed so fucked up, that any scale of war is immediately going for the nuclear holocaust option? This is your honest take on Russia, as Russian?

Any attempt to credibly attack Russia will be met with appropriate counter-force.

If that force would be enough to overwhelm non-nuclear capabilities - that is, basically US attack scenario, pretty much noone else has the capability - there is no question that at least tactical nukes will see use; and if that will not be enough then strategic ones.

I'm relatively confident that in any other attack scenario we can crush attackers without resorting to it, so it would be pointless to even try.

[Gorsameth]

If Putin is willing to have a nuclear war over his ambition to reform the USSR then its going to have to happen anyway when he starts attacking NATO countries. That or the West once again backs down and the entire world order comes crashing down and we might aswell hand him all of Europe and save ourselves the trouble.

'light' sanctions aren't working. I would hope people have gotten that message by now.

So, assuming we don't want to hand Putin the keys to Paris and Berlin what options are there? Destroy Russia's ability to wage war through destroying its economy via actual harsh sanctions and complete isolation or we use force to stop him.

To those who are against immediate hard punishing sanctions and isolation or military intervention (note I am talking about striking at the forces invading Ukraine, not invading Russia itself) I ask this.
Where does this end? Putin has just expressed his desire to reform the USSR by threat of arms. The threats and sanctions made sofar have done nothing to stop him. So I ask you, where does this end in your view?

[Azadina]

Any attempt to credibly attack Russia will be met with appropriate counter-force.

If that force would be enough to overwhelm non-nuclear capabilities - that is, basically US attack scenario, pretty much noone else has the capability - there is no question that at least tactical nukes will see use; and if that will not be enough then strategic ones.

I'm relatively confident that in any other attack scenario we can crush attackers without resorting to it, so it would be pointless to even try.

If the force is overwhelming enough, why not consider the option you're forcing on Ukraine; surrender with terms. That way maybe Russians would survive, unlike the nuclear option.

[Shalcker]

If Putin is willing to have a nuclear war over his ambition to reform the USSR then its going to have to happen anyway when he starts attacking NATO countries. That or the West once again backs down and the entire world order comes crashing down and we might aswell hand him all of Europe and save ourselves the trouble.

Or you could, you know, reach reasonable compromise and work on common security system rather then say "Our principles are non-negotiable".

So, assuming we don't want to hand Putin the keys to Paris and Berlin what options are there? Destroy Russia's ability to wage war through destroying its economy via actual harsh sanctions and complete isolation or we use force to stop him.

There is not going to be "complete isolation" at the same time you're trying to contain China.

Or do you want to fight that economic war too?

[wunksta]

I remember someone mentioning this earlier but they confirmed it now:

The Kremlin admitted that a dramatic Security Council meeting on Ukraine was recorded in advance after people realized a minister's watch showed the wrong time.

https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-admit...123452192.html

[Gorsameth]

Or you could, you know, reach reasonable compromise and work on common security system rather then say "Our principles are non-negotiable".

There is not going to be "complete isolation" at the same time you're trying to contain China.

Or do you want to fight that economic war too?

Invading other countries is not up for compromise no.

[Edge-]

I remember someone mentioning this earlier but they confirmed it now:

https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-admit...123452192.html

Oh man, I hope that guy with the watch has "falling out of a window" insurance.

[Shalcker]

If the force is overwhelming enough, why not consider the option you're forcing on Ukraine; surrender with terms. That way maybe Russians would survive, unlike the nuclear option.

First - we already tried that - that's how we ended up where we are now, in a situation Russia sees as unsustainable.

Second - as i said, you aren't actually ready to get there. To sacrifice your country for supposed "greater good without Russia".

While Putin said:
"An aggressor should know that vengeance is inevitable, that he will be annihilated, and we would be the victims of the aggression. We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this"

That's how deterrence works - and it is clearly working.

[Edge-]

We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this

Man, Putin is sounding very suicide-bombery lately. I don't think that' instilling confidence about his current state of mind.

[Shalcker]

Man, Putin is sounding very suicide-bombery lately. I don't think that' instilling confidence about his current state of mind.

That was from 2018.

[Edge-]

That was from 2018.

Not instilling confidence in his state of mind in 2018, either. This is straight up suicide-bomber rhetoric, yo. Not what one expects from the "democratically" elected head of state of a developed nation.