1. #23581
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    I wouldn't have thought simping for russian ethnic cleansing was a solution either, but here you are.
    If you are going to put words in my mouth you can feel free to talk to a mirror.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, there is. Remove your forces from Ukraine. Total capitulation would mean ruskies would have to acknowledge the loss and pay reparations, and we all know it wont happen. So just fuck off, weave some bullshit "mission accomplished" narrative for the masses, swallow your pride and bunker up to lick your wounds. Obviously, Putler would get a loads of shit for that, but keeping engaged in that war only makes things worse for him.
    But doing what you say would implode the country, they shouldn't have done the invasion in the first place but here we are. From their perspective they don't see how it would get worse, sanctions aren't going to be reversed and the leadership doesn't care about lost of lives they are kind of backed into a corner of their own making.

  2. #23582
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    If you are going to put words in my mouth you can feel free to talk to a mirror.
    Here's your words:

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I may be mistaken but I believe their stance was that Ukraine should negotiate a solid peace deal with guarantees from the international community even if it means ceding some territory to save lives and the economy.
    They've made their intentions clear what they plan to do with the ukrainians in the places they hold. Yet here you are, advocating to give that population up for ethnic cleansing. That's why I referred you back to easo's last posts in the thread. You know, where we saw not just the russians' rhetoric that they were going to engage in ethnic cleansing, but the actual evidence of the beginnings of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  3. #23583
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    They've made their intentions clear what they plan to do with the ukrainians in the places they hold. Yet here you are, advocating to give that population up for ethnic cleansing. That's why I referred you back to easo's last posts in the thread. You know, where we saw not just the russians' rhetoric that they were going to engage in ethnic cleansing, but the actual evidence of the beginnings of it.
    Nowhere does it say that, Russia already controled parts of the Ukraine before the invasion keep talking out of your ass.

  4. #23584
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Nowhere does it say that, Russia already controls parts of the Ukraine before the invasion keep talking out of your ass.
    Yeah, it does, right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I may be mistaken but I believe their stance was that Ukraine should negotiate a solid peace deal with guarantees from the international community even if it means ceding some territory to save lives and the economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  5. #23585
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Yeah, it does, right here:
    Yeah the territory Russia controlled pre invasion hasn't been ceded by Ukraine.

  6. #23586
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    But doing what you say would implode the country, they shouldn't have done the invasion in the first place but here we are. From their perspective they don't see how it would get worse, sanctions aren't going to be reversed and the leadership doesn't care about lost of lives they are kind of backed into a corner of their own making.
    But it's getting worse by the week, as shown by Ukrainians counteroffensive and Putler getting schooled by his "anti-NATO" organization peers. And country may implode even harder when sanctions and military failures keep piling on.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-09-17 at 06:55 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #23587
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Yeah the territory Russia controlled pre invasion hasn't been ceded by Ukraine.
    I refer you back to a previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    They've made their intentions clear what they plan to do with the ukrainians in the places they hold.
    If you're just looking for newer evidence than bucha, just look at the news. No one is forcing you to simp for warcrimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  8. #23588
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    But it's getting worse by the week, as shown by Ukrainians counteroffensive and Putler getting schooled by his "anti-NATO" organization peers. And country may implode even harder when sanctions and military failures keep going on.
    At this point sanctions have done as much as they are going to do, the only effect left is the cutting off the gas entirely to Europe. We are all in for a rough ride after that but again they have no way to go but forward. If they capitulate the implosion is a guarantee not to mention their own necks possibly on the line, they have very little to lose by keeping it going.

  9. #23589
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    At this point sanctions have done as much as they are going to do, the only effect left is the cutting off the gas entirely to Europe. We are all in for a rough ride after that but again they have no way to go but forward. If they capitulate the implosion is a guarantee not to mention their own necks possibly on the line, they have very little to lose by keeping it going.
    Eh, no. Sanctions were always a long term punishment, so their full power will show in time. If Putler stays in this conflict, then the damage done by sanctions and military losses/humiliations will keep piling up. If he would immediately back off, then there is a chance to calm down West. But his proud KGB brain tells him not to.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  10. #23590
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Eh, no. Sanctions were always a long term punishment, so their full power will show in time. If Putler stays in this conflict, then the damage done by sanctions and military losses/humiliations will keep piling up. If he would immediately back off, then there is a chance to calm down West. But his proud KGB brain tells him not to.
    Nah if you look at the economic numbers the sanctions have done all they can, the last part was cutting off Russian gas but they did that to themselves early. Sanctions only work if there is a plan for diplomacy as North Korea has shown alone they don't work because those governments don't care about the average person. It's pretty obvious that the thinking Putin has isn't an unique, there's no guarantee replacing him would fix things in the short or long run.

  11. #23591
    Sanctions are working. Putin is back to the 'if you need gas, lift sanctions. Please.' stage.

  12. #23592
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Nah if you look at the economic numbers the sanctions have done all they can, the last part was cutting off Russian gas but they did that to themselves early. Sanctions only work if there is a plan for diplomacy as North Korea has shown alone they don't work because those governments don't care about the average person. It's pretty obvious that the thinking Putin has isn't an unique, there's no guarantee replacing him would fix things in the short or long run.
    Like I said, Putlers fixation on uniting Slavs and becoming a Russian legend may not be a common sentiment among his peers. Replacing him could very well create a power struggle and make ruskies fuck off from Ukraine, something defo worth having. Also, NK citizens are waaaay more repressed than Russians. We JUST had a bunch of regional politicians speaking against Putler, something unheard of a year ago.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-09-17 at 07:23 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  13. #23593
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Sanctions are working. Putin is back to the 'if you need gas, lift sanctions. Please.' stage.
    That's not the way I see it, Europe was going to cut off the gas next year by cutting it early he is hurting the EU before they do and looks stronger domestically.

  14. #23594
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Sanctions are working. Putin is back to the 'if you need gas, lift sanctions. Please.' stage.
    Not to mention (im sure someone has already) that Russia announced 10% budget cuts across the board. 24bn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    That's not the way I see it, Europe was going to cut off the gas next year by cutting it early he is hurting the EU before they do and looks stronger domestically.
    Not with them budget cuts. Not to mention all the shortages starting to hit home. Factories closed for things like cars (no chips). People will be out of work and the state will be cutting services.

  15. #23595
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Like I said, Putlers fixation on uniting Slavs and becoming a Russian legend may not be a common sentiment among his peers. Replacing him could very well create a power struggle and make ruskies fuck off from Ukraine, something defo worth having. Also, NK citizens are waaaay more repressed than Russians. We JUST had a bunch of regional politicians speaking against Putler, something unheard of a year ago.
    Most people will just want to keep their head down and live their lives, Russian citizens are sadly used to things sucking. I don't see the possibility of mass uprising, replacing him doesn't address the core problem at the heart of Russia which is mainly economic. It's too late now but things could have turned out much different if we took the same approach we did with Japan during the collapse of the Soviet Union instead we told them to fuck off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Not with them budget cuts. Not to mention all the shortages starting to hit home. Factories closed for things like cars (no chips). People will be out of work and the state will be cutting services.
    They have been going through that for a while now so yeah the sanctions have done what they were supposed to do already.

  16. #23596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    That's not the way I see it, Europe was going to cut off the gas next year by cutting it early he is hurting the EU before they do and looks stronger domestically.
    Don't use Shalker talk of "sanctions hurt West more than Russia" on us. Doesn't matter how strong he looks domestically (for now), the fact is, he is loosing his most valuable client (Europe), and is replacing it with China, who will take his gas no probs, but at a discount. Putler had all the power in 20y to reform his country, yet he decided to turn it into a gas station. Well, tough break! EU ain't buying any more!
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-09-17 at 07:30 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  17. #23597
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Don't use Shalker talk of "sanctions hurt West more than Russia" on us. Doesn't matter how strong he looks domestically (for now), the fact is, he is loosing his most valuable client (Europe), and is replacing it with China, who will take his gas no probs, but at a discount.
    I am not taking that line I am simply stating that if he let Europe cut off the gas it would be in their timeline where it wouldn't hurt. Of course this is a big loss for Russia which is the last part we haven't seen the effect they can't make up for EU with China, India and other countries due to logistical problems.

  18. #23598
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Most people will just want to keep their head down and live their lives, Russian citizens are sadly used to things sucking. I don't see the possibility of mass uprising, replacing him doesn't address the core problem at the heart of Russia which is mainly economic. It's too late now but things could have turned out much different if we took the same approach we did with Japan during the collapse of the Soviet Union instead we told them to fuck off.


    The core problem that russia has is not an economic one.

  19. #23599
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I frankly don't see Russia backing down, there is no off ramp being offered aside from total capitulation and that would be a disaster for them.
    To be fair, with the way things are going right now this war may end sooner rather then later even without Russia choosing to back down. Ukraine is still advancing and receiving weapons/supplies while Russia is leaving theirs behind for Ukraine to re-purpose.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #23600
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post


    They have been going through that for a while now so yeah the sanctions have done what they were supposed to do already.
    And what they will continue to do. Thats the point. The will cause deep damage to Russia, the longer they are imposed the worse it will get. It also ruins supply chains.

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