Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kaleredar]

I don't think you understand corruption in russia. They aren't beaten down by it, they all participate in it, on every rung of the society.

They accept it as inevitable. Pay certain people the right things. Don't say things about certain other people when they try and take advantage. Respect this person or that person or you wind up dead. That's all predictable, to a degree. Obey the "rules," no matter how perverse they may be, and you have self-preservation.


"Here's a gun with no bullets, go run out into that field and get your ass shot to death for no reason, or hunker down here and get blown up" is not predictable. At that point, self-preservation is out the window.


And it's all about self-preservation, as with any selfishness. And all that's necessary is that enough people judge that their lives are better spent fighting inside of Russia rather than getting blown up outside of it, if for nothing else than not having to be sent out to be blown up.

And I'm sure there are plenty of opportunistic Russian oligarchs and other people of actualized power that would be keen to take advantage of that, and any and all corruption that they can elicit from it.

I recall reading that allegedly in Russia they view corruption as inevitable and so long as it leads to stability and security they will put up with it.

There are certain circles within the United States that seem to believe that as well.

"It doesn't matter if a certain former president broke the law, so long as he keeps those evil leftists in their place"

[Gabriel]

I recall reading that allegedly in Russia they view corruption as inevitable and so long as it leads to stability and security they will put up with it.

They accept it as inevitable. Pay certain people the right things. Don't say things about certain other people when they try and take advantage. Respect this person or that person or you wind up dead. That's all predictable, to a degree. Obey the "rules," no matter how perverse they may be, and you have self-preservation.


"Here's a gun with no bullets, go run out into that field and get your ass shot to death for no reason, or hunker down here and get blown up" is not predictable. At that point, self-preservation is out the window.


And it's all about self-preservation, as with any selfishness. And all that's necessary is that enough people judge that their lives are better spent fighting inside of Russia rather than getting blown up outside of it, if for nothing else than not having to be sent out to be blown up.

And I'm sure there are plenty of opportunistic Russian oligarchs and other people of actualized power that would be keen to take advantage of that, and any and all corruption that they can elicit from it.




There are certain circles within the United States that seem to believe that as well.

"It doesn't matter if a certain former president broke the law, so long as he keeps those evil leftists in their place"

You guys are still missing the mark. Corruption isn't some "inevitable evil" that they have to participate in for stability and security. Corruption permeates every single aspect of their daily lives. You pay bribes for everything. It is like tax that you just have to pay and nobody thinks about it more than that. The issue with this is that everyone grows up thinking the everyday corruption is all fine and dandy, so nobody gives a shit about the high level corruption either, because they know they would do the exact same thing if they were the one in position of power. Corruption is the norm, not the exception.

[Kaleredar]

You guys are still missing the mark. Corruption isn't some "inevitable evil" that they have to participate in for stability and security. Corruption permeates every single aspect of their daily lives. You pay bribes for everything. It is like tax that you just have to pay and nobody thinks about it more than that. The issue with this is that everyone grows up thinking the everyday corruption is all fine and dandy, so nobody gives a shit about the high level corruption either, because they know they would do the exact same thing if they were the one in position of power. Corruption is the norm, not the exception.

And I'm sure that even if they're okay with paying the "corruption tax," they're far less okay with being blown up by long-range artillery.

[Gabriel]

And I'm sure that even if they're okay with paying the "corruption tax," they're far less okay with being blown up by long-range artillery.

Sometimes you don't get to choose between dying in a revolution or dying in a foreign country your psychopathic leader send you to to rape and pillage.

See 1:04

[Kaleredar]

Sometimes you don't get to choose between dying in a revolution or dying in a foreign country your psychopathic leader send you to to rape and pillage.

See 1:04

And like I said, if enough of them make that choice, then that could change… in at least securing corrupt leaders content to just take their money, rather then also sending them off to die.

It’s not like brutal dictators in corrupt systems haven’t been deposed by a rebellious population (or other scheming leadership) before, and Russia has monumentally changed their system of governance twice in just a bit over a human lifetime.

[Gabriel]

And like I said, if enough of them make that choice, then that could change… in at least securing corrupt leaders content to just take their money, rather then also sending them off to die.

It’s not like brutal dictators in corrupt systems haven’t been deposed by a rebellious population (or other scheming leadership) before, and Russia has monumentally changed their system of governance twice in just a bit over a human lifetime.

You are right. I'm just tired of so many people acting like violent revolutions were something that would never ever happen ever again, and act so shocked that one might be needed right now.

[Vladier]

You guys are still missing the mark. Corruption isn't some "inevitable evil" that they have to participate in for stability and security. Corruption permeates every single aspect of their daily lives. You pay bribes for everything. It is like tax that you just have to pay and nobody thinks about it more than that. The issue with this is that everyone grows up thinking the everyday corruption is all fine and dandy, so nobody gives a shit about the high level corruption either, because they know they would do the exact same thing if they were the one in position of power. Corruption is the norm, not the exception.

The more you speak like that, the more I get an impression that you believe that we pay bribes to cashiers so they process our cheque. To my knowledge, bribes are mostly in upper-level bureaucracy and higher education, and even there it's not that widespread, mostly amongst older functionaries. For all it's worth, taking bribes is still a crime for which you can get caught, and people who get villas and cars out of their corruption do so not by taking bribes but by siphoning the funds.

Just a personal anecdote, but when I started attending university, I was told that everyone there would be corrupt and take bribes. And yet there were only two professors who were rumoured to take bribes, and I didn't need to pay anything to them to pass their exams, so I can't know if those rumours were ever true. There were talks of putting together a collective bribe to one professor but everyone chickened out over how awkward it would be if the rumours weren't true. And I attended two separate departments, so twice as many possible professors to take bribes. Overall, I'd rate my bribing experience as "Is this any different from what American movies showed me about how you can pass anything by sleeping with the professor?"

But even then, to focus on one particular aspect:

The issue with this is that everyone grows up thinking the everyday corruption is all fine and dandy, so nobody gives a shit about the high level corruption either, because they know they would do the exact same thing if they were the one in position of power.

Which is why people in these positions of power are stigmatized, and politics is considered to be a dirty professional field. There is a social divide between "normal" people who don't participate in politics, because everyone there is bought and "honest" people don't go into politics or large business, and those higher-ups whom everyone "knows" to be corrupt and dishonest and whom no one who has any "decency" wants to be.

Corruption isn't "normal", it's something dirty and done under wraps in hushing voices, but to me, at least, it seems more like some yard game of play-pretend, like "bandits and sheriffs", only played by adults with much less energy and enthusiasm. Unless it's about police corruption, where it is pervasive and spread through the same spirit of camaraderie and untouchability as police brutality, both in Russia and everywhere else where police brutality is an institutional problem.

And people who say stuff like "corruption is okay as long as it's for the greater good" are Shalcker and his ilk, so why even bother spreading their views further?

[Gorsameth]

You are right. I'm just tired of so many people acting like violent revolutions were something that would never ever happen ever again, and act so shocked that one might be needed right now.

violent revolutions are very rare and require very dire circumstances. The problem for Putin is that by threatening to send everyone to die in a pointless meatgrinder of his own creation is that he is creating the very circumstances needed for a violent revolution.

And this mobilization isn't even going to solve anything, bodies with no equipment and no training are not going to stop the Ukrainian advance, the world will ensure they run out of Russians to shoot before they run out of bullets.

[Lahis]

And this mobilization isn't even going to solve anything, bodies with no equipment and no training are not going to stop the Ukrainian advance, the world will ensure they run out of Russians to shoot before they run out of bullets.

Not sure about that. Running out of ammo is real concern since world's weapon production is not up to the task of prolonged nation vs. nation war.

[Corvus]

Not sure about that. Running out of ammo is real concern since world's weapon production is not up to the task of prolonged nation vs. nation war.

I'm fairly sure the collective west will be able to outproduce russia.

[Flarelaine]

I hear sending a bunch of rando's into a combat zone with no training is generally actually a very good strategy and in no way endangers whatever unfortunate units they are attached to. Or maybe they'll be their own unit or something and can unironically be Russia recreating "Operation Human Shield".

Or they may act like units formed of minorities of Austria-Hungary did in the first World War. All too often they just surrendered en masse.

[Crispin]

Protests in Russia will amount to nothing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...eb2x&context=3

This "brave" lot will get utterly destroyed in Ukraine.

[ldev]

I'm fairly sure the collective west will be able to outproduce russia.

He meant "concern for russia". They already are buying old chinese ammo from n. korea and iran.

- - - Updated - - -

Protests in Russia will amount to nothing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...eb2x&context=3

This "brave" lot will get utterly destroyed in Ukraine.

Yea, even Iranian women have more balls than russian men, nothing new.

[Lahis]

Well here is a fun thread. Paraphrasing The Economist issue published on 14th of October 1854 about the then current Crimean war:

https://twitter.com/DecodingTrolls/s...t-94GC1JA&s=19

tl;dr it was a shitshow of Russian ineffectiveness and corruption and if they adjusted few dates and names they could reprint that article as accurate analysis on current situation.

Russia never changes.

[Iphie]

Orban got his marching orders it seems. Hungary wants to lift sanctions on russia.

[MCMLXXXII]

Orban got his marching orders it seems. Hungary wants to lift sanctions on russia.

Probably because the EU is going to sanction Hungary.

[s_bushido]

And people who say stuff like "corruption is okay as long as it's for the greater good" are Shalcker and his ilk, so why even bother spreading their views further?

/shrug It's easier to go after the weakest positions. Especially when there are people like Shalcker around who are seemingly happy to be living examples of those sort of positions. I don't think it's quite the same as a strawman, but it's close.

[Makabreska]

Probably because the EU is going to sanction Hungary.

Hope EU will finally crack down hard on this Putler agent.

[Nymrohd]

Hope EU will finally crack down hard on this Putler agent.

The question is, how?

[Azadina]

Orban got his marching orders it seems. Hungary wants to lift sanctions on russia.

He's going to be the tripping stone towards NATO then, if he's that clearly paid off by Putler.