Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Shalcker]

Invading other countries is not up for compromise no.

Well, just choose death then. Go ahead, push your politicians to accept it.

[Azadina]

First - we already tried that - that's how we ended up where we are now, in a situation Russia sees as unsustainable.

Second - as i said, you aren't actually ready to get there. To sacrifice your country for supposed "greater good without Russia".

While Putin said:
"An aggressor should know that vengeance is inevitable, that he will be annihilated, and we would be the victims of the aggression. We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this"

That's how deterrence works - and it is clearly working.

You launch nukes, you inflict massive casualties, sure, but you do not have anywhere near the capability to wipe out all of western countries. However, after that launch, well...the gloves are obviously all off. Not one Russian would stand afterwards. So the question is; Are YOU (Russia) ready to go extinct?

[Shalcker]

Not instilling confidence in his state of mind in 2018, either. This is straight up suicide-bomber rhetoric, yo. Not what one expects from the "democratically" elected head of state of a developed nation.

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

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You launch nukes, you inflict massive casualties, sure, but you do not have anywhere near the capability to wipe out all of western countries.

90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

However, after that launch, well...the gloves are obviously all off. Not one Russian would stand afterwards. So the question is; Are YOU (Russia) ready to go extinct?

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

[Edge-]

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

I guess we need to just cave to terrorist groups making the same threats. Weird that you're putting Putin and someone like Bin Laden on the same playing field.

[Shalcker]

What’s your point? That he’s been publicly crazy for 4 years?

That you cannot threaten him enough without accepting mutual destruction.

Which, given that you aren't, means there is no way for you to deter him.
All you can do is inflict damage and hope it goes below threshold where nukes fly anyway - and even options for inflicting damage without taking same or higher damage in turn are quite limited and mostly exhausted in previous years.

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I guess we need to just cave to terrorist groups making the same threats. Weird that you're putting Putin and someone like Bin Laden on the same playing field.

World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

[Azadina]

90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

Russia has what, 140m population? Compare that to the West. Now reduce from those totals what the casualties may be after both ways nuking, and tell me how badly Russian population is still outnumbered. No, not "alive". Quite gone, permanently after such conflict. A small note in the history books. While yeah, China would rule over the world afterwards.

[Edge-]

World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

Yeah, maybe we should. You should give Putin a ring. Because you're still fundamentally arguing for giving into terrorist threats.

[Vakna]

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

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90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

I'm out of the loop, why does Putin feel that he has no other option than to invade Ukraine? From what I've seen, if you give him eastern Ukraine he is just going to use that as a stepping stone to get more and more. You talk about compromise but what if the compromise is the entire Ukraine and then he sets his sights on Poland and other NATO countries? Where does he stop? Should we hand him Europe, then America too? You can't make deals with bullies and criminals, if he wants to be the next Hitler then WW3 is inevitable.

Putin has absolutely no right to decide if countries or regions are "independent", he is single handedly about to ruin hundreds of thousands of lives, perhaps millions if things go even more badly.

[Crispin]

That you cannot threaten him enough without accepting mutual destruction.

Which, given that you aren't, means there is no way for you to deter him.
All you can do is inflict damage and hope it goes below threshold where nukes fly anyway - and even options for inflicting damage without taking same or higher damage in turn are quite limited and mostly exhausted in previous years.

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World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

The West is allergic to appeasement, Putin is giving flashbacks to another asshole, that slowly invaded countries with the “it’s our people!!” argument.

[jonnysensible]

merkel the appeaser is gone as well, this is a new and better germany.

Sanction the wealthy russians get the 2000 of thier kids at private schools here out. Tell Patel she gets cancel visas and deport people.

[Belize]

We sure went from "There are no Russian troops preparing to invade Ukraine" to "Fucking do everything we want our we'll nuke the whole world" really quickly.

Stay classy you turnip shill.

[Shalcker]

The West is allergic to appeasement, Putin is giving flashbacks to another asshole, that slowly invaded countries with the “it’s our people!!” argument.

That one didn't have nukes, so you actually could stop him by force.

Got to find some alternative this century.

Or you could accept mutual destruction. Sacrifice yourself for betterment of the world; just entire "democratic coalition" vs "removing one crazy dictator", surely a fair trade.

[Crispin]

That one didn't have nukes, so you actually could stop him by force.

Got to find some alternative this century.

Or you could accept mutual destruction. Sacrifice yourself for betterment of the world.

MAD is still a thing, we all know that

1) Russia will not use nukes offensively without an invasion on Russian soil.

2) China wont let you use nukes offensively without an invasion on russian soil

3) the west wont invade Russia


It’s not a “b-b-but nukes!” Discussion.

[wunksta]

President Joe Biden said Tuesday that Russia has begun “an invasion” of Ukraine, and he announced sweeping sanctions on the major Russian bank VEB and its military bank.

Biden also announced that the United States would implement comprehensive sanctions on Russia’s sovereign debt.

“That means we’ve cut off Russia’s government from Western financing,” Biden said in remarks at the White House. “It can no longer raise money from the West and cannot trade its new debt on our markets. or European markets either.”

In addition to the sanctions on VEB and Russian debt, Biden said in the days ahead he would sanction individual Russians in Putin’s inner circle.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/22/bide...incursion.html

[Shalcker]

Yeah, maybe we should. You should give Putin a ring. Because you're still fundamentally arguing for giving into terrorist threats.

Some things make sense at certain scale even if they don't at lower ones.

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MAD is still a thing, we all know that
1) Russia will not use nukes offensively without an invasion on Russian soil.
2) China wont let you use nukes offensively without an invasion on russian soil
3) the west wont invade Russia
It’s not a “b-b-but nukes!” Discussion.

There is no deterrence option West could use to change situation in Ukraine.

They refused everything that actually could.

[Edge-]

Some things make sense at certain scale even if they don't at lower ones.

As long as you're still arguing that we should just cave to terrorist threats, sure. At least we know where you stand on terrorism, and on the Russian government and Putin as a "democratically elected" terrorist organization.

[Shalcker]

I'm out of the loop, why does Putin feel that he has no other option than to invade Ukraine? From what I've seen, if you give him eastern Ukraine he is just going to use that as a stepping stone to get more and more.

West was basically gaslighting him.
Russia gets republics at the table, creates agreement, gets EU to support it, even gets republics to sign up to it...
and then Ukraine basically says "this agreement is worthless, harmful, and we aren't going to implement it; we'll pick and choose parts that Russia needs to do and then ignore all the rest"
Russia:"Well, now force Ukraine to follow it?" EU:"Nope, not going to"
"Make Ukraine create another agreement they would be ready to implement instead?" "Nope, not going to"
"Well, what do you want me to do?" "Follow the Minsk agreements"
"But we already agreed on sequence, and Ukraine didn't even implement first step" "There is no alternative to Minsk"
all while US and UK were "Here, Ukraine, another loan to buy our weapons cache that was expiring! Use it well! You'll certainly get into NATO! ...someday"
This went on for eight years.

You talk about compromise but what if the compromise is the entire Ukraine and then he sets his sights on Poland and other NATO countries? Where does he stop? Should we hand him Europe, then America too? You can't make deals with bullies and criminals, if he wants to be the next Hitler then WW3 is inevitable.

Well, reach an agreement with him. There is no "what if" - he stated what he wanted quite plainly. You could have him commit to some steps that would assuage your fears in return for NATO concessions. Common security means Russian and your security; not your dictate.

If you really think that your principle of NATO "freedom to do whatever" are entirely non-negotiable then WW3 is inevitable; build bunkers and learn Chinese.

Putin has absolutely no right to decide if countries or regions are "independent", he is single handedly about to ruin hundreds of thousands of lives, perhaps millions if things go even more badly.

So why would you refuse to reduce his fears? Why would you not commit to NATO non-expansion?

There are plenty of alternatives for defending countries through the history. Even plenty of European alternative proposals that could address Russian concerns.

[Crispin]

Some things make sense at certain scale even if they don't at lower ones.

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There is no deterrence option West could use to change situation in Ukraine.

They refused everything that actually could.

We have no issue sending Russia back to their 90’s economic situation.

No it wont stop Russia doing whatever putin want in Ukraine. But in the end it’s NATO countries security thats the endgame for us, not a non-EU non-NATO member.

[Shalcker]

As long as you're still arguing that we should just cave to terrorist threats, sure. At least we know where you stand on terrorism, and on the Russian government and Putin as a "democratically elected" terrorist organization.

If you have no fears you'd back down from then West is suicidal.

And maybe you are.

[Edge-]

If you have no fears you'd back down from then West is suicidal.

And maybe you are.

You're the one here functionally arguing for MAD, so I'm not sure why anyone should take you remotely seriously.