Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Azadina]

Any attempt to credibly attack Russia will be met with appropriate counter-force.

If that force would be enough to overwhelm non-nuclear capabilities - that is, basically US attack scenario, pretty much noone else has the capability - there is no question that at least tactical nukes will see use; and if that will not be enough then strategic ones.

I'm relatively confident that in any other attack scenario we can crush attackers without resorting to it, so it would be pointless to even try.

If the force is overwhelming enough, why not consider the option you're forcing on Ukraine; surrender with terms. That way maybe Russians would survive, unlike the nuclear option.

[Shalcker]

If Putin is willing to have a nuclear war over his ambition to reform the USSR then its going to have to happen anyway when he starts attacking NATO countries. That or the West once again backs down and the entire world order comes crashing down and we might aswell hand him all of Europe and save ourselves the trouble.

Or you could, you know, reach reasonable compromise and work on common security system rather then say "Our principles are non-negotiable".

So, assuming we don't want to hand Putin the keys to Paris and Berlin what options are there? Destroy Russia's ability to wage war through destroying its economy via actual harsh sanctions and complete isolation or we use force to stop him.

There is not going to be "complete isolation" at the same time you're trying to contain China.

Or do you want to fight that economic war too?

[wunksta]

I remember someone mentioning this earlier but they confirmed it now:

The Kremlin admitted that a dramatic Security Council meeting on Ukraine was recorded in advance after people realized a minister's watch showed the wrong time.

https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-admit...123452192.html

[Gorsameth]

Or you could, you know, reach reasonable compromise and work on common security system rather then say "Our principles are non-negotiable".

There is not going to be "complete isolation" at the same time you're trying to contain China.

Or do you want to fight that economic war too?

Invading other countries is not up for compromise no.

[Edge-]

I remember someone mentioning this earlier but they confirmed it now:

https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-admit...123452192.html

Oh man, I hope that guy with the watch has "falling out of a window" insurance.

[Shalcker]

If the force is overwhelming enough, why not consider the option you're forcing on Ukraine; surrender with terms. That way maybe Russians would survive, unlike the nuclear option.

First - we already tried that - that's how we ended up where we are now, in a situation Russia sees as unsustainable.

Second - as i said, you aren't actually ready to get there. To sacrifice your country for supposed "greater good without Russia".

While Putin said:
"An aggressor should know that vengeance is inevitable, that he will be annihilated, and we would be the victims of the aggression. We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this"

That's how deterrence works - and it is clearly working.

[Edge-]

We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this

Man, Putin is sounding very suicide-bombery lately. I don't think that' instilling confidence about his current state of mind.

[Shalcker]

Man, Putin is sounding very suicide-bombery lately. I don't think that' instilling confidence about his current state of mind.

That was from 2018.

[Edge-]

That was from 2018.

Not instilling confidence in his state of mind in 2018, either. This is straight up suicide-bomber rhetoric, yo. Not what one expects from the "democratically" elected head of state of a developed nation.

[Shalcker]

Invading other countries is not up for compromise no.

Well, just choose death then. Go ahead, push your politicians to accept it.

[Azadina]

First - we already tried that - that's how we ended up where we are now, in a situation Russia sees as unsustainable.

Second - as i said, you aren't actually ready to get there. To sacrifice your country for supposed "greater good without Russia".

While Putin said:
"An aggressor should know that vengeance is inevitable, that he will be annihilated, and we would be the victims of the aggression. We will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just drop dead. They will not even have time to repent for this"

That's how deterrence works - and it is clearly working.

You launch nukes, you inflict massive casualties, sure, but you do not have anywhere near the capability to wipe out all of western countries. However, after that launch, well...the gloves are obviously all off. Not one Russian would stand afterwards. So the question is; Are YOU (Russia) ready to go extinct?

[Shalcker]

Not instilling confidence in his state of mind in 2018, either. This is straight up suicide-bomber rhetoric, yo. Not what one expects from the "democratically" elected head of state of a developed nation.

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

- - - Updated - - -

You launch nukes, you inflict massive casualties, sure, but you do not have anywhere near the capability to wipe out all of western countries.

90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

However, after that launch, well...the gloves are obviously all off. Not one Russian would stand afterwards. So the question is; Are YOU (Russia) ready to go extinct?

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

[Edge-]

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

I guess we need to just cave to terrorist groups making the same threats. Weird that you're putting Putin and someone like Bin Laden on the same playing field.

[Shalcker]

What’s your point? That he’s been publicly crazy for 4 years?

That you cannot threaten him enough without accepting mutual destruction.

Which, given that you aren't, means there is no way for you to deter him.
All you can do is inflict damage and hope it goes below threshold where nukes fly anyway - and even options for inflicting damage without taking same or higher damage in turn are quite limited and mostly exhausted in previous years.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess we need to just cave to terrorist groups making the same threats. Weird that you're putting Putin and someone like Bin Laden on the same playing field.

World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

[Azadina]

90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

Russia has what, 140m population? Compare that to the West. Now reduce from those totals what the casualties may be after both ways nuking, and tell me how badly Russian population is still outnumbered. No, not "alive". Quite gone, permanently after such conflict. A small note in the history books. While yeah, China would rule over the world afterwards.

[Edge-]

World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

Yeah, maybe we should. You should give Putin a ring. Because you're still fundamentally arguing for giving into terrorist threats.

[Vakna]

Maybe you should have listened to him before he felt he had no other option then to act.

- - - Updated - - -

90% of all major cities - most definitely. Are you ready for such sacrifice? You'll be turning world to China as the only remaining power and your "world order" will be in the dust either way.

Actually we'll survive just as much as Western powers - severely crippled, but "alive" if you think whatever will be left of Western world is "alive".

And, well, we do have working ABM systems to minimize damage to some areas.

I'm out of the loop, why does Putin feel that he has no other option than to invade Ukraine? From what I've seen, if you give him eastern Ukraine he is just going to use that as a stepping stone to get more and more. You talk about compromise but what if the compromise is the entire Ukraine and then he sets his sights on Poland and other NATO countries? Where does he stop? Should we hand him Europe, then America too? You can't make deals with bullies and criminals, if he wants to be the next Hitler then WW3 is inevitable.

Putin has absolutely no right to decide if countries or regions are "independent", he is single handedly about to ruin hundreds of thousands of lives, perhaps millions if things go even more badly.

[Crispin]

That you cannot threaten him enough without accepting mutual destruction.

Which, given that you aren't, means there is no way for you to deter him.
All you can do is inflict damage and hope it goes below threshold where nukes fly anyway - and even options for inflicting damage without taking same or higher damage in turn are quite limited and mostly exhausted in previous years.

- - - Updated - - -

World had 50+ years when two powers listened to each other for a reason.

Maybe you should try doing it again.

The West is allergic to appeasement, Putin is giving flashbacks to another asshole, that slowly invaded countries with the “it’s our people!!” argument.

[jonnysensible]

merkel the appeaser is gone as well, this is a new and better germany.

Sanction the wealthy russians get the 2000 of thier kids at private schools here out. Tell Patel she gets cancel visas and deport people.

[Belize]

We sure went from "There are no Russian troops preparing to invade Ukraine" to "Fucking do everything we want our we'll nuke the whole world" really quickly.

Stay classy you turnip shill.