Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

You always leave the enemy a path out. No matter how small, no matter how dangerous, leave them a path out. If they think they can escape, they'll try. Shooting them running is more efficient than trying to shoot them while they shoot back.

Bit like Sun Tzu, eh? "Always leave your enemy a golden bridge to retreat over.", though in this case it's less of a golden bridge and more a case of: "run and we won't shoot you...too much."

[zealo]

there was a road out towards Kremmina but it was in Ukrainian artillery range so it probably wasn't a fun exit.

That, and encirclements are rarely so airtight absolutely no one inside can slip through the enemy line they're behind.

[Slant]

Fkin joke Russia can still sit at UN table and veto stuff.

Since that stuff is being vomitted all over Reddit, I'll take this opportunity to put my thoughts in a place where people might actually be able to keep up attention for more than one sentence.

It's not a joke. The UN Security Council is not the world government. It's not a mediation place. It's not a court of justice. It's purpose is not to bring justice to a country, or protect any country from any other country (although it sometimes takes on that role, god knows why).

The one and only purpose of the SC is to prevent WW3. And that is why Russia is sitting at the table and that is why Russia has a veto. It is the last place where diplomacy reigns and the US and Russia can still talk to each other, even if all direct lines are cut, if all ambassadors have been recalled/ejected. The SC council is the last place where both sides can talk about nukes and how not to use them.

And that is why a veto in the SC exists. So any party with a veto can prevent any action they do not like, no reasons necessary. If that veto doesn't exist, both the US and Russia would most likely walk. What good is a security council with only Europeans and China sitting at the table?

Once you understand that the UN in general and the SC in particular are NOT governmental replacements but purely diplomatic institutions, you'll be able to move on from the question that seems to haunt the internet once more: Why isn't the UN doing anything? Cos that's not what the UN's purpose is. It's a diplomatic forum, nothing else. It's - strictly speaking - barely a political forum, although politics basically encompasses everything in daily life. So let me be more precise, it's not a political instrument for governing anyone. Least of all Western nations that require democratic principles to be involved when authority is exercised. The lack of democratic principles is the core reason why the UN has zero authority, by the way.

And yes, they do take votes, but nothing in the UN is elected by the people. Any people. Because it is just diplomacy, nothing else.

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Setting aside feelings of: "It's their own fault for being there", you can't help but shake your head at the senseless waste here. I mean this sounds like a scared kid.

It's not a waste. Russian families back home are paying the price. And so far, it seems the price is not steep enough to make them rethink their shitty life choices. They need to pay more.

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I mean there is a difference in hating random russians and hating a russian soldier who would have done the exact same thing he is terrified off if he had the chance because he is invading a country.

The overwhelming majority in Russia still supports this war, there are no "random russians" anymore. They've had ample time and opportunity to change their attitudes. Meanwhile, we still have recordings of wives not batting an eyelid at the horrible things their husbands do. Mothers telling their sons to not be "one-sided" when they tell them what's really going on in Ukraine. There are no innocents in Russia.

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Yeaaah...but those are details! It's an orderly withdrawal totally NOT inspired by being pummeled for days...

I read the transcript, it's terrible, I know.

Only thing terrible about it is that an American had to endure that shit because of Russia's actions.

[Iphie]

@Slant

Thank you for articulating that WAY better than I ever could, because it was definitely getting to me. I'd rather russia stays put in the UN than outside of it.

[Biglog]

One anecdotal thing reflecting the previous point about the Russian public supporting the war has been the Russians on holiday in Crimea. To start, they must realize the beach and ground they are vacationing on is stolen land. And secondly, the juxtaposition of them in swim trunks and suntanning while enjoying the beach is jarring as a war with violence and war crimes being committed against Ukrainian civilians not far away. In some cases with bombs and artillery going off within eyesight or earshot. There are Russian civilians in opposition to it, but they seem like a very outnumbered minority.

I do think the UN's purpose is a bit wider than just preventing WW3 though. It's really a forum to discuss all threats to humanity. WW3 is an obvious one. But there are others like natural disasters and human rights, and that's why those are a big part of their discussions and funding. UN Peacekeepers have also played an important role in maintaining peace in smaller regional conflicts. Ironically WW3 is the thing the UN is least capable of preventing, since any veto-holding country can go rogue as Russia has and it becomes completely ineffective. The League of Nations that preceded it was ineffective for similar reasons of having no teeth. The UN is better than nothing and helps prevent smaller conflicts, but in situations like this it is little more than a place to air grievances when a veto-holding country is emulating Germany in WW2 and doesn't care if 98% of the other UN members speak out against their actions.

If anything it's almost counter-productive to preventing WW3 in these instances, since Russia is telling other nations they are going to veto anything denouncing their invasion of Ukraine. So they are saying nothing will ever pass anyway so don't vote against us, or else it will be noted with vague threats of 'consequences'. It's a bit like the Ukrainian civilians 'voting' in the sham referendums to join Russia, where voting was at gunpoint and the names of anyone that voted no were written down by a Russian soldier. Memories of Soviet elections with 1 candidate and 99% approval.

[Gorsameth]

One anecdotal thing reflecting the previous point about the Russian public supporting the war has been the Russians on holiday in Crimea. To start, they must realize the beach and ground they are vacationing on is stolen land. And secondly, the juxtaposition of them in swim trunks and suntanning while enjoying the beach is jarring as a war with violence and war crimes being committed against Ukrainian civilians not far away. In some cases with bombs and artillery going off within eyesight or earshot. There are Russian civilians in opposition to it, but they seem like a very outnumbered minority.

I do think the UN's purpose is a bit wider than just preventing WW3 though. It's really a forum to discuss all threats to humanity. WW3 is an obvious one. But there are others like natural disasters and human rights, and that's why those are a big part of their discussions and funding. UN Peacekeepers have also played an important role in maintaining peace in smaller regional conflicts. Ironically WW3 is the thing the UN is least capable of preventing, since any veto-holding country can go rogue as Russia has and it becomes completely ineffective. The League of Nations that preceded it was ineffective for similar reasons of having no teeth. The UN is better than nothing and helps prevent smaller conflicts, but in situations like this it is little more than a place to air grievances when a veto-holding country is emulating Germany in WW2 and doesn't care if 98% of the other UN members speak out against their actions.

If anything it's almost counter-productive to preventing WW3 in these instances, since Russia is telling other nations they are going to veto anything denouncing their invasion of Ukraine. So they are saying nothing will ever pass anyway so don't vote against us, or else it will be noted with vague threats of 'consequences'. It's a bit like the Ukrainian civilians 'voting' in the sham referendums to join Russia, where voting was at gunpoint and the names of anyone that voted no were written down by a Russian soldier. Memories of Soviet elections with 1 candidate and 99% approval.

The UN is supposed to be powerless. Its entire point is that Russia can say "no we're not doing that" in a conference room instead of on a battlefield.

And yes, if Putin wants to start WW3 the UN is not going to prevent that, but the UN was never going to prevent it with or without Russia or any other disruptive force at the table.

[zealo]

People wanting to strip security council members of veto powers ought to do some reading on why it's predecessor in the league of nations failed.

It has deliberately been designed so there's no impetus for the bigger boys to feel like withdrawing from the organisation wholesale is the better option for them.

[Slant]

One anecdotal thing reflecting the previous point about the Russian public supporting the war has been the Russians on holiday in Crimea. To start, they must realize the beach and ground they are vacationing on is stolen land. And secondly, the juxtaposition of them in swim trunks and suntanning while enjoying the beach is jarring as a war with violence and war crimes being committed against Ukrainian civilians not far away. In some cases with bombs and artillery going off within eyesight or earshot. There are Russian civilians in opposition to it, but they seem like a very outnumbered minority.

I do think the UN's purpose is a bit wider than just preventing WW3 though. It's really a forum to discuss all threats to humanity. WW3 is an obvious one. But there are others like natural disasters and human rights, and that's why those are a big part of their discussions and funding. UN Peacekeepers have also played an important role in maintaining peace in smaller regional conflicts. Ironically WW3 is the thing the UN is least capable of preventing, since any veto-holding country can go rogue as Russia has and it becomes completely ineffective. The League of Nations that preceded it was ineffective for similar reasons of having no teeth. The UN is better than nothing and helps prevent smaller conflicts, but in situations like this it is little more than a place to air grievances when a veto-holding country is emulating Germany in WW2 and doesn't care if 98% of the other UN members speak out against their actions.

If anything it's almost counter-productive to preventing WW3 in these instances, since Russia is telling other nations they are going to veto anything denouncing their invasion of Ukraine. So they are saying nothing will ever pass anyway so don't vote against us, or else it will be noted with vague threats of 'consequences'. It's a bit like the Ukrainian civilians 'voting' in the sham referendums to join Russia, where voting was at gunpoint and the names of anyone that voted no were written down by a Russian soldier. Memories of Soviet elections with 1 candidate and 99% approval.

You're saying the SC is counter-productive to preventing WW3? Tell me, how many WW3s have happened recently? I must have missed some, because my premise is that the SC, effective or not, is a net positive to the whole "Let's not nuke the planet" idea.

You keep thinking of the SC as if it had any authority to actually do anything. It doesn't. The US puts up votes in the SC well aware that Russia is going to veto it and China is going to abstain it. Nobody ever thinks the SC decisions were binding law or would actually change anything. The way they work is that they are a public gauge of opinions. No more. US thinks attacking Ukraine is bad, Europe agrees, Russia thinks the US can kiss its ass and China thinks everyone else are idiots and they'd rather like to see who's winning before committing to anything. Great, the SC has served its purpose, everyone knows what the other guy is thinking and still nobody pressed the big red button. Job accomplished.

The SC does not exist to bring justice to evil people. Stop focusing on it, it's not meant for you or me, the laymen. It's meant for diplomats and media outbursts over vetos.

Justice? Only two things can bring justice: 1. Russians overthrow Putin and bring him to court, 2. Ukraine fucks Russia up and brings Putin to court. So far, neither seem very likely. But note that none of these options include the UN or the UNSC.

So calm yourself and steer your interest in realistic avenues. For instance, Ukraine doesn't need some shitty round table of countries that aren't even Ukraine to bring justice. They seem to be able to bring justice to Russians all on their own (with a little help from their friends). They will liberate the entire country at some point, join the EU, join NATO and then their borders will solidify. With some luck, or a lot of luck, they might even get those abducted citizens and children back. And that'll be the end of Russia as we know it. That's some kind of justice, innit?

Russia has successfully crippled itself for generations. Even if the war ends today, the decisions made by the EU are done and dusted. Russia will pay for this for many decades. THAT is justice. And it'll be Russian citizens paying for their national and cultural psychopathy. That's a punishment nothing in the UN or UNSC could enforce. Don't get hung up on symbolism and think pragmatically. Russia's already lost. They're just too stubborn to realise it. But they will, and the wailing will be big.

[Kokolums]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

[Makabreska]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

Tell us my man, how your friends/family react to the things you say? Are you being invited to parties often?

[Elegiac]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US.

The only thing more laughable than Putin's speech is the fact you believe him.

[Realtalk]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

When you read translated version of speech sounds like he could be on ReAwaken America Tour

[enigma77]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

I'm shaking with fear. Rocket man is gonna nook. Oh no.

[Saradain]

I have not seen more ridiculous notions like this EVER before. The tinfoil hat to end all tinfoil hats.

[Makabreska]

I have not seen more ridiculous notions like this EVER before. The tinfoil hat to end all tinfoil hats.

Hard to imagine, but this one is more wild than Yuppie.

[Saradain]

Hard to imagine, but this one is more wild than Yuppie.

The ultimate infraction waiting to happen. Fearmongering, trolling, forbidden topics in an unholy amalgamation so grotesque...

[Gorsameth]

"Putin wants to end the world in nuclear fire, but he is waiting for the paperwork first".

I don't even know where to start on this insanity lol.

[Slant]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

Do you have this from a reputable source as well or is this just some twitter fantasy?

[Deus Mortis]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

He tries it and his country ends up like Reach from Halo. However it is not going to happen, if someone is committed to using nuclear weapons, why the fuck would they have to wait for some paperwork. It's not like Putin has ever obeyed what rules have been written before. So tell me Yuppie 2.0 why is he waiting, cause using nukes and everything goes out the window anyways. Why not just use them now?

[Dontrike]

Putin just gave a huge speech basically outlining why he is about to declare war on the US and nuke the US. The final holdup to the war is waiting for the Russian legislature to pass the paperwork formally annexing the Ukrainian regions. The legislature is supposedly taking this up October 4th.

This has been a religious war from the start. Putin summed his list of grievances with the West that he has said over and over again for the past 15 years (liberalism is satanic, homosexuality is immoral, sex changes of kids is immoral, abortion is immortal, etc.), and the cherry on top was when he hinted that the fact that the US is the only nation in history to nuke nukes (Atomic bombs on Japan to end WW2), that this gives Russia the authority to nuke the US.


Grim days, indeed.


https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...29807593533441

You believe in some insane stuff. It's really worrying the lengths you'll go to to knight for terrible people.