1. #24241
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Well, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, strictly speaking, the US has the means and motive to do it. Less a question of NATO, more one of 'buy our gas instead of Russias'. Not saying they did it, though.
    Not how the US conducts business, usually.
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  2. #24242
    Well Tucker Carlson may be a phedophile, I'm not sayin he is, but if he is, then he should get hanged for kidnapping small babies and molesting them and starving them to death, it's an interesting thought.

    That rhetoric of his is so stupid, it's just vomiting silly ideas with zero reasoning behind it.

    As long as Putin is running Russia and/or his successor is a similar cold war remnant, NS1 and NS2 wont open up again. It's a free round for Putin to destroy them, since they're useless within his reigning period.

    Add how it moved focus from the "elections", gave idiots and especially Russian stream tv users some fuel to blame the US for backstabbing the EU while bombing Russia.

    For anyone else who arent morons and see it for what it is, realise that it's a veiled threat towards underwater infrastructure.

    Russia should stick to hybrid warfare, cus they're obviously utter shit at actual war.

  3. #24243
    Warchief Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    For the sake of argument: Who else?

    I commend your strict demand for proof or evidence, but just for funsies... NATO countries are not exactly known to blow shit up in their territory to blame Russia. That's Russia's game. Who else even has access to these pipes? I think we can rule out terrorism from the Middle East, they don't have the capabilities nor the opportunity to pull something like this off.
    I agree wholeheartedly, but that's what's puzzling to me: those with means have barely a motive, those with motive have no means. (russia has means but their motive would be flimsy, so they fall under the first category.)

    I'm suspecting russia, but I can't be sure and say it was russia then how did they do it? I mean subs and surface vessels would have been noticed.

    Edit: I don't even want to contemplate a hitherto unrevealed player in the mix. But the list of potential suspects is very small indeed.

    One thing that could still be considered: russian resistance, they'd have the motivation to cut of putin, and relieve the West from his blackmail, but if they have the means they're more organized than suspected.

    One more edit: while we know russia lies when its lips move, we should still approach this as if they tell the truth, as galling as it may be, because IF (big IF) they do speak the truth then we have other issues that need addressing.
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-09-29 at 11:03 AM.

  4. #24244
    Putin is going to illegally annex the regions tomorrow.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63072113

  5. #24245
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Putin is going to illegally annex the regions tomorrow.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63072113
    Huh. Yeah, well, it's not like he can escalate it any further, can he?

    ...can he?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Not how the US conducts business, usually.
    Honestly, I was just throwing around ideas. I do think the risks of an action like this would far outweigh the benefits, and the US really doesn't have to do this, since Russia is fully capable of sabotaging itself to death.

  6. #24246
    What are the likely consequences of Russia's annexation? More sanctions? I feel they will get away with it, because no-one wants to call Putin's nuclear bluff.

  7. #24247
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    What are the likely consequences of Russia's annexation? More sanctions? I feel they will get away with it, because no-one wants to call Putin's nuclear bluff.
    Isn't the US sending another billion dollar shipment of weapons to Ukraine to answer those? More than doubling the amount of HIMARS (18 more) and other things too. Russia has been scared of the 16 they had already. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-St...ty-investment/

  8. #24248
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    For the sake of argument: Who else?

    I commend your strict demand for proof or evidence, but just for funsies... NATO countries are not exactly known to blow shit up in their territory to blame Russia. That's Russia's game. Who else even has access to these pipes? I think we can rule out terrorism from the Middle East, they don't have the capabilities nor the opportunity to pull something like this off.
    The problem is I don't see what Russia gets out of sabotaging their 1 carrot they have to dangle infront of Germany. Without a working pipeline there is a lot less pressure on Germany to buy Russian gas if the winter gets problematic. That's a bad thing for Russia.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #24249
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Isn't the US sending another billion dollar shipment of weapons to Ukraine to answer those? More than doubling the amount of HIMARS (18 more) and other things too. Russia has been scared of the 16 they had already. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-St...ty-investment/
    Yes, but Putin's aim here is to up the ante and force Ukraine and the West to deal with him on his terms. If any of those rockets end up in the annexed territories there is a chance Putin will demonstrate that he wasn't bluffing. I wonder what our strategy will be.

  10. #24250
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Yes, but Putin's aim here is to up the ante and force Ukraine and the West to deal with him on his terms. If any of those rockets end up in the annexed territories there is a chance Putin will demonstrate that he wasn't bluffing. I wonder what our strategy will be.
    Bluffing about what? You still operate on the belief that Russia would glass itself over Donbas?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #24251
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Yes, but Putin's aim here is to up the ante and force Ukraine and the West to deal with him on his terms. If any of those rockets end up in the annexed territories there is a chance Putin will demonstrate that he wasn't bluffing. I wonder what our strategy will be.
    Almost want them to launch the nuke and be erased from the face of the Earth when west switches from "arm Ukraine" to "send men to completely and utterly annihilate Russia".

  12. #24252
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    What are the likely consequences of Russia's annexation? More sanctions? I feel they will get away with it, because no-one wants to call Putin's nuclear bluff.
    The west is not going to succumb to nuclear blackmail. If it does now where will it end.

    Also he's been issuing nuclear threats for years now, it's just another Tuesday really. In the end a nuclear strike would have far bigger consequences than Russia could handle.

    China is not going to approve of Russia lopping nukes at a neigbour for obvious reasons.

    So far we can be sure of one thing, if Russia say they didnt do it, they did it. If they say they'll do it, they wont.

  13. #24253
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    What are the likely consequences of Russia's annexation? More sanctions? I feel they will get away with it, because no-one wants to call Putin's nuclear bluff.
    More sanctions, Ukraine keeps slaughtering untrained Russian troops and taking back their lands and no nukes are used because the US has made it very, very clear there will be truly massive consequences.

  14. #24254
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Bluffing about what? You still operate on the belief that Russia would glass itself over Donbas?
    I don't believe I said anything to justify that inference. I'm simply wondering what the response to Putin will be once those territories are annexed, taking his apparent bluff into account.

  15. #24255
    https://www.is.fi/politiikka/art-2000009101747.html
    Finland just can't stop fucking up this visa issue. We will still continue allowing access for "humanitarian reasons and for anyone visiting family".

    Edit: and those owning property in Finland that needs immediate maintenance. -.-
    Last edited by Gabriel; 2022-09-29 at 12:11 PM.

  16. #24256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    More sanctions, Ukraine keeps slaughtering untrained Russian troops and taking back their lands and no nukes are used because the US has made it very, very clear there will be truly massive consequences.
    He is putting himself in a corner though, nuke get annihilated, don't nuke, fall out of a window.

    In the end though the US has indeed made it very clear what the consequences are, and not even China will say the US is at fault in that situation. (I wouldn't even put it beyond Biden and Xi to have had some very secret conversations about this exact eventuality.)

  17. #24257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    https://www.is.fi/politiikka/art-2000009101747.html
    Finland just can't stop fucking up this visa issue. We will still continue allowing access for "humanitarian reasons and for anyone visiting family".

    Edit: and those owning property in Finland that needs immediate maintenance. -.-
    It's shameful, but I'm not sure it even matters all that much, at this point. Russia seems determined to beating us to it, and forbidding it's own citizens from leaving the country. But we'll see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  18. #24258
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Huh. Yeah, well, it's not like he can escalate it any further, can he?

    ...can he?
    Expect nukes by the weekend.

    Unfortunatley, I'm only half-joking. I think that's part of his agenda and I have come to accept that he's actually, clinically insane.
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  19. #24259
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    It's shameful, but I'm not sure it even matters all that much, at this point. Russia seems determined to beating us to it, and forbidding it's own citizens from leaving the country. But we'll see.
    Letting russia do what we should have done is highly embarrassing, and I wish the rest of the world would fucking start publicly shaming us for this kind of behavior on state level, so we might finally fucking learn...

  20. #24260
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    What are the likely consequences of Russia's annexation? More sanctions? I feel they will get away with it, because no-one wants to call Putin's nuclear bluff.
    Zelenskyy is going to call the bluff. When you have balls of steel that are big enough to change Earth's gravitational center point, you don't give a fuck about some amateur screaming "But I got four aces!"

    Especially not when you have a straight flush, he just went all in and oh, you can see his cards cos he's holding them facing you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The problem is I don't see what Russia gets out of sabotaging their 1 carrot they have to dangle infront of Germany. Without a working pipeline there is a lot less pressure on Germany to buy Russian gas if the winter gets problematic. That's a bad thing for Russia.
    That carrot is gone. Germany's supply from Russia is now in the "Misc" tab. What does Russia gain out of it? They obviously considered Germany a pushover. That bluff failed spectacularily and now they're just throwing tantrums nobody gives a shit about. This time next year Germany will be weened off Russian fossil fuels. No matter what happens in Ukraine, Russia going toe to toe with the EU like this is going to cripple them for decades. Generations even. Welcome to Russia, the new third world country.
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