Russian invasion of Ukraine

[fwc577]

The fallout from a tactical nuke would not hit a NATO country.

It most certainly would and we should be VERY afraid. JUST LIKE THE WMDS IN IRAQ. As a matter of fact, maybe we should launch operation Shock and Awe 2 and ensure that they cannot use the WMDs, just like Iraq!

[Crispin]

Like how Elon Moscow bitches about bots on Twitter, and then tries to get some sort of opinion from a twitter vote.

Hate it when entrepreneurs think that they are automaticly qualified for politics. So you have a political opinion, welcome to the club dipshit.

[Gabriel]

Elon should shut the fuck up and focus on going to Mars.

[Specialka]

I do so love it when people don't bother reading what they are linking to.

That is his own opinion, not some universal rule.

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Because nukes are a no-no and everyone knows it. Russia can call them tactical all day long, if the payload is enough to have any sort of effect, it will be too much and it will garner a very strong reaction, not to mention the fact that the USA will likely know about the launch before it even happens. Russia absolutely does not benefit from such drastic escalation in any realistic scenario.

Plus, riddle me this, what would Russia gain by using a nuke low enough in power that NATO would, hypothetically, only grumble? Ukraine aren't bunching up their soldiers all in one place and any city center worth hitting is likely out of range now. Killing a couple hundred, or even thousand, grunts with a nuke, yay, they're still losing, Ukrainian morale is highly unlikely to be broken and now everyone on the planet is mighty pissed at them. Now what, use more? Bigger ones? What's the point here? What's the goal apart from spitefully killing dudes as if this was the last minute of a doomed Command and Conquer match?

And iff Putin is just nuking shit just out of spite, I promise you, NATO will be way, way past caring about the propaganda gains of a country that will soon be a glassed crater.

Everyone in the Western world knows it. Why do you assume that we share the same opinion or views about those than in Russia or other similar country ?

[Nymrohd]

It most certainly would and we should be VERY afraid. JUST LIKE THE WMDS IN IRAQ. As a matter of fact, maybe we should launch operation Shock and Awe 2 and ensure that they cannot use the WMDs, just like Iraq!

You realize that Russia DOES own WMDs? A variety of them from nuclear to chemical and biological? It's not in question like it rightfully was in Iraq. So your analogy is fairly poor?

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Elon should shut the fuck up and focus on going to Mars.

And then staying there.

[zealo]

That is his own opinion, not some universal rule.

Yeah, I think I'll take the opinion of a former secretary of defence that's generally well respected in the US military on what the US would do, over you.

[Nymrohd]

With respect, Slant, I know it's the NORTH Atlantic Treaty Organisation, but when you say it like that you kinda dismiss South America and Africa. Let's not forget that the West Coast of Africa also borders the North Atlantic by definition (as well as the south Atlantic in the south of course). At best Europe owns one third of the north Atlantic.

And NATO had acted in Africa. And in the Middle East. And even in the Pacific. Also if we define NATO by its original intent of containing Russia, Georgia absolutely is relevant. It is an extremely eurocentric view of the world to think otherwise.

[Iphie]

And NATO had acted in Africa. And in the Middle East. And even in the Pacific. Also if we define NATO by its original intent of containing Russia, Georgia absolutely is relevant. It is an extremely eurocentric view of the world to think otherwise.

Which was kinda my point. I did check up eligibility though and it does seem NATO is only open for European countries (and the US and Canada). But I imagine it can be stretched to include non-european countries on the Atlantic, like how every now and then the notion that the other countries around the Mediterranean could maybe be allowed into the EU. (Nothing ever come of that though.)

[Nymrohd]

Which was kinda my point. I did check up eligibility though and it does seem NATO is only open for European countries (and the US and Canada). But I imagine it can be stretched to include non-european countries on the Atlantic, like how every now and then the notion that the other countries around the Mediterranean could maybe be allowed into the EU. (Nothing ever come of that though.)

Plus as I already said there are transcontinental countries; the Eurasian border in particular has 5 (Russia, Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan). Georgia in particular is generally considered European geopolitically (It's a NATO candidate, an EU candidate, Orthodox Christian)

[Slant]

And NATO had acted in Africa. And in the Middle East. And even in the Pacific. Also if we define NATO by its original intent of containing Russia, Georgia absolutely is relevant. It is an extremely eurocentric view of the world to think otherwise.

Yeah, but you know... we can't be blamed for Europe actually being the center of the universe and the best place to be in. And no, we don't include Georgia, really. Europe should really stop east of Belarus and even Ukraine is questionable. Turkey is only in it because of a fucking technicality, but really they're not Europe, either. Also, Stalin. *shudder*

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Which was kinda my point. I did check up eligibility though and it does seem NATO is only open for European countries (and the US and Canada). But I imagine it can be stretched to include non-european countries on the Atlantic, like how every now and then the notion that the other countries around the Mediterranean could maybe be allowed into the EU. (Nothing ever come of that though.)

The fuck do we want with third world countries in the EU? Geez... the ideas you guys have sometimes. Israel is the only country that would bring anything to the table.

[Specialka]

Yeah, but you know... we can't be blamed for Europe actually being the center of the universe and the best place to be in. And no, we don't include Georgia, really. Europe should really stop east of Belarus and even Ukraine is questionable. Turkey is only in it because of a fucking technicality, but really they're not Europe, either.

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The fuck do we want with third world countries in the EU? Geez... the ideas you guys have sometimes. Israel is the only country that would bring anything to the table.

It is not like Turkey shares a lot of our values anyway.

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Which was kinda my point. I did check up eligibility though and it does seem NATO is only open for European countries (and the US and Canada). But I imagine it can be stretched to include non-european countries on the Atlantic, like how every now and then the notion that the other countries around the Mediterranean could maybe be allowed into the EU. (Nothing ever come of that though.)

Some eastern european countries should not be in the EU to begin with. It is already far too hard to get a consensus now. So thanks but no thanks about country not even in Europe.

[Slant]

It is not like Turkey shares a lot of our values anyway.

Had a turkish co-worker once and Turkey was up for elections. So I asked her what she'd vote for, it being her first election and all. And she said Erdogan. I asked why? And she said "Because he's so manly!"

Like what the fuck... at least pretend to have a political opinion!

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, but you know... we can't be blamed for Europe actually being the center of the universe and the best place to be in. And no, we don't include Georgia, really. Europe should really stop east of Belarus and even Ukraine is questionable. Turkey is only in it because of a fucking technicality, but really they're not Europe, either. Also, Stalin. *shudder*

Well that's fine but history and geography define what Europe is, not you. Turkey's most populous city is transcontinental and Turkey has more people living geographically in Europe than many European countries have as a population. Russia has more people living in Europe than ANY other European country (about 115 million live west of the Urals). Georgia is a christian country whose history is largely defined by its relations with European and Eurasian transcontinental powers (Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, Russian).

The EU is another thing entirely. I also find the idea of Georgia joining the EU laughable (and I've said it before, Greece joined the EU a decade too early with catastrophic results). But NATO is a different beast entirely.

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Had a turkish co-worker once and Turkey was up for elections. So I asked her what she'd vote for, it being her first election and all. And she said Erdogan. I asked why? And she said "Because he's so manly!"

Like what the fuck... at least pretend to have a political opinion!

Because other people in Europe do not vote for similar reasons . . . people voted for Boris Johnson ffs.

[Lahis]

Because other people in Europe do not vote for similar reasons . . . people voted for Boris Johnson ffs.

Dunno if I want to meet the pwrson who voted for Boris Johnson because "he is so manly".

[Nymrohd]

Dunno if I want to meet the pwrson who voted for Boris Johnson because "he is so manly".

I did mean that people vote for leaders for inane reasons in general. But sadly something tells me there is at least one person who voted for Boris for that reason. . .

[Vakna]

Because other people in Europe do not vote for similar reasons . . . people voted for Boris Johnson ffs.

As an British citizen, I have no idea what the political values of our parties or MP's are at all. I've never voted in my life, because I've never seen the point. I've lived through many prime ministers and leadership groups and none of them have ever changed the way I live my life, so to me who runs the country is irrelevant. I probably know about as much about British politics as the average American does, and I live here.

[zealo]

The fuck do we want with third world countries in the EU? Geez... the ideas you guys have sometimes. Israel is the only country that would bring anything to the table.

It's not going to happen anyway so long as the unanimity principle stands with EU accession.

Morocco tried to join the precursor to the EU in the 1980s, and got denied ostensibly on that exact basis of being in Africa.

[Iphie]

Regarding allowing other Mediterranean countries in the EU, it's not my idea, and I'm not a supporter of it, it's just one of those things mentioned every now and then.

[Nymrohd]

Regarding allowing other Mediterranean countries in the EU, it's not my idea, and I'm not a supporter of it, it's just one of those things mentioned every now and then.

It's also irrelevant. My main point was that there absolutely is a scenario for containment of Russia once this war cools down by surrounding it with NATO members at least on the European side. And to expand upon that, a weakened Russia is an opportunity to offer security assistance to several countries in Asia that were balancing China and Russia against each other to maintain their sovereignty and may well find that lacking this balance of power, Chinese influence becomes oppressive and fast. Splitting it in parts or occupying it are fantasies.

[Slant]

Well that's fine but history and geography define what Europe is, not you. Turkey's most populous city is transcontinental and Turkey has more people living geographically in Europe than many European countries have as a population. Russia has more people living in Europe than ANY other European country (about 115 million live west of the Urals). Georgia is a christian country whose history is largely defined by its relations with European and Eurasian transcontinental powers (Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, Russian).

The EU is another thing entirely. I also find the idea of Georgia joining the EU laughable (and I've said it before, Greece joined the EU a decade too early with catastrophic results). But NATO is a different beast entirely.

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Because other people in Europe do not vote for similar reasons . . . people voted for Boris Johnson ffs.

As you may remember, I'll defend Greece being in the EU fiercly. They are the origin story of modern democracy and I'll not have anyone say Greece doesn't belong in arguably one of the best achievements of Western democracy.

As for Turkey, as I said, technically they are in Europe. But that's only a technicality, as far as everything else is concerned, they might as well be Mongolia. The political and cultural divide are so huge, it's incompatible. And given how they tried to bully Greece recently with the oil fields, my stance has only hardened.

I'm not interested in history lessons, while I'm happy considering Ukraine European, Georgia is already so far out, I'd consider it the absolut limit of what I'd consider European.

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As an British citizen, I have no idea what the political values of our parties or MP's are at all. I've never voted in my life, because I've never seen the point. I've lived through many prime ministers and leadership groups and none of them have ever changed the way I live my life, so to me who runs the country is irrelevant. I probably know about as much about British politics as the average American does, and I live here.

Go to the Brexit thread and then explain how your life doesn't change. I dare you.

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It's not going to happen anyway so long as the unanimity principle stands with EU accession.

Morocco tried to join the precursor to the EU in the 1980s, and got denied ostensibly on that exact basis of being in Africa.

Not sure if the unanimity (is that a word? lol) can be continued for much longer. Scholz already made advances to getting rid of it for certain aspects.