1. #24681
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Nord stream practice run? But seriously if that one goes I bet China won't be best pleased.
    Plenty of border conflicts between the Istan countries. Then we have the so-called Uighur terrorist groups. Plenty of options for plausible deniability.

    What's the Chinese going to do anyway? Invade Ukraine?

  2. #24682
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    It goes beyond a safety issue though… the track literally got twisted, something trains can’t deal with…
    Erm, tracks can be replaced relatively "easily", no matter how twisted they are. Relative to the concrete structure the bridge is made out of anyway. If the bridge itself didn't sustain any major damage then yes they could get it up and running quite fast.

    I think people are blowing the success of this sabotage out of proportion a little bit.

  3. #24683
    Looks like Russia thought the bridge would be better protected, since they boasted about 20 different protections they had in place, including dolphins. They must have been newer dolphins that didn't have the training yet.


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  4. #24684
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Realy a nice present for a Putins 70th




    Jesus Christ! I saw the articles but didn't read them until I saw this thread...um...blow up. Sorry.

    A massive fireball damaged a well-known Russian bridge Saturday that links the Crimean Peninsula and the Russian mainland, according to multiple reports.

    The explosion will likely cause an immediate blow to Russia's supply route to troops fighting in southern Ukraine.

    The Kerch bridge has been a longtime symbol of Russian President Vladimir Putin's claim to the Crimean Peninsula.

    As a response to the explosion, Putin signed an order heightening security on the bridge late Saturday, the AP reports. Russia's federal security service, known as the FSB, will be in charge of security measures at the bridge.

    Putin has also ordered an investigation into the Kerch Bridge "emergency" in Crimea, Russia's state-run TASS news agency reported Saturday.

    The Kerch Strait Bridge, which runs for 12 miles, was rocked by an explosion of a truck early Saturday morning, Russia’s Investigative Committee said in a statement, per NBC News.

    The explosion “resulted in the ignition of seven fuel tanks of a train heading towards the Crimean Peninsula,” the statement said.

    Multiple lanes of the bridge reportedly crashed into the Black Sea. Images show the entire bridge encapsulated by a large fireball.

    The full extent of the damage, including deaths and injuries, remains unclear.
    That must have taken some mission-critical timing. Besides the obvious symbolic nature of the strike, it was a commonly-used Russia military supply route until recently.
    Last edited by Breccia; 2022-10-09 at 04:28 AM.

  5. #24685
    Immortal hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    To those obsessed with not hurting Russia too much:

    Works of Russian culture will be fine. There is no Roman Republic/Empire anymore, but works of their culture still remain. There are no ancient Greek city-states anymore, but works of their culture still remain. For the betterment of the humanity, Russian Federation shouldn't exist anymore, but obviously Russian-speaking people will still exist. I know, I'm one of them. Even after there's no Russia, works of Russian culture will be fine.

    If Russia doesn't undergo some process similar to what Germany did, it will remain this terrorist/Nazi state forever, they will never have a reason to change as a nation.
    That was obviously a juvenile overreaction by those guys'/gals' part, no one in their right mind wants to destroy Russia, the people and their culture as a means of retaliation, you should just ignore them. I think it's safe to say that Russian literature is regarded as the best in the entire world, destroying it should be regarded as a crime against humanity.

    The unfortunate truth is that there are bad people operating on both sides who have all the power in the world to do anything they want, and they illegitimately represent their people. Their only denominations are lust for power and money, and they are willing to destroy entire peoples under false pretences such as protecting their country or geopolitical influence.

    These people are everywhere, they hold serious positions of power and unfortunately take their job a bit too seriously. They are the progeny of old regimes, they operate within the shadows and will never be stopped as long as their governments are as opaque as they can.

    They only thing you can do is hope for something better coming along in the near future. As much as we want to believe that we are members of a democratic society, we are experiencing one of Plato's ancient conundrums and his biggest criticism of democracy, corruption of public opinion to fit the needs of the few, which is the natural and logical conclusion of a society that becomes too big and diverse. In his mind, true democracy only works within a small and homogeneous society, which is not the case in the last couple thousand years. We will always have a caricature of democracy until there is full transparency of government organs and operators.

    Of course I am not only talking about Russia.
    Last edited by hellhamster; 2022-10-09 at 04:49 AM.

  6. #24686
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    It goes beyond a safety issue though… the track literally got twisted, something trains can’t deal with…

    I’d be surprised if they can get the burnt out train off the track in short order, let alone let another train go by.
    The tracks themselves aren't really an issue, it's the bridge itself and any internal structural damage it might have suffered. Rails can be repaired very quickly over such a short distance, but the same can't be for the bridge span itself it runs over.

    If Russia pushes through re-opening of traffic this quickly there's a real chance we'll see a train receiving a promotion to submarine soon.

  7. #24687
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Come now Slant, Russia has produced amazing culture, art, ballets, music and literature. That can't be erased. Their current insanity not withstanding.

    This does make me sometimes wonder how that happened, high culture on one side, complete troglodytes on the other.
    I was speaking in present tense for a reason. Oppression and dictatorships favour the uneducated, easily to manipulate masses. What do you think happened to potential Tolstois and Tchaivovskys? My bet is, they're sitting in some Gulag because artists are typically among the first who want to be free.

    Additionally, and I'm a bit angry that I have to keep repeating myself: As long as Ukrainian culture, art, ballets, music and literature is destroyed by Russia, I don't give a flying fuck what you want to save inside Russia.

    Again, my sympathies are all used up for Ukraine right now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    By putting enough external squeeze on them, of course. Literally no one considers invading a country possessing nukes. You bury them under the sanctions until their country collapse internally and is forced to change. China wont do shit about it.
    Been there, done that. Soviet collapse. Russia is fubar. You HAVE to occupy it and run the country for them, because Russia never had a decent Government. The rot and cultural violence is ingrained so deeply into the country, you'd probably need to ship 50% of the population into Gulags if you applied Western legal understanding to the situation.

    Let this sink in, Russians are invading a country, and despite all the tactical necessities of war and, you know, survival, their first - almost instinctive - reaction is to rape and pillage... They are animals a good 200 years lagging behind on the civilisation evolution timeline. And somehow we still think we need to treat them like raw eggs?

    Nah, fuck that. Turn the country into rubble, let them meditate on the state of their fucked up culture while they rebuild their cities brick by brick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    If Russia doesn't undergo some process similar to what Germany did, it will remain this terrorist/Nazi state forever, they will never have a reason to change as a nation.
    I tend to agree with this Russian poster. The main issue from a global politics point of view that I see is the cultural paranoia of Russia. Everything they do is an excuse for them to "defend themselves" and pretend like everyone is "out to get them".

    Amazingly, NATO hasn't launched an attack on Russia for 80 years now, so I think it's safe to assume Russian leadership is well aware of the defensive nature of NATO. It's time to put down the satin gloves and give Russia a reason to whine... the reason for change? Survival. Russia needs to be pounded into submission until the last one acknowledges that their way did not protect them, that all their paranoia and posturing was in vain. Then occupy them for 50 years (and make no mistake, it WILL take that long, American public whining be damned) and re-educate them about what really happened inside and outside of Russia. And then fucking shower them in Western luxury. I don't mean the almost cynical McDonald's invasion of Russia.

    Anyone else been embarassed about that? McDonald's opening in Moscow in the early 90s and Moscovitans standing in queues for hours to get hamburgers? I was like "Guys, their food is trash, why are you queueing up for it? It's the middle of the day not 3 am on your drunken bar crawl"

    What I mean is start building up their industry and shit properly, show them proper economics, not the crime economics they learned in the 90s.

    Oh before I forget, shoot all oligarchs. I mean, there's nothing gained by being nice to them, no knowledge lost. Just kill 'em.

    Edit: Their families, too. All of them. Not interested in trying to see if the son understands the logic, waste of our time. We've tried playing nice, I'm done with it. Do humanity a favour, be the asshole and remove them from the equation.
    Last edited by Slant; 2022-10-09 at 07:40 AM.
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  8. #24688
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The unfortunate truth is that there are bad people operating on both sides who have all the power in the world to do anything they want, and they illegitimately represent their people. Their only denominations are lust for power and money, and they are willing to destroy entire peoples under false pretences such as protecting their country or geopolitical influence.
    And there we go. Tell us more about bad people illegitimately representing Ukraine. Or any other democratic country opposing Russia.
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  9. #24689
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    They only thing you can do is hope for something better coming along in the near future. As much as we want to believe that we are members of a democratic society, we are experiencing one of Plato's ancient conundrums and his biggest criticism of democracy, corruption of public opinion to fit the needs of the few, which is the natural and logical conclusion of a society that becomes too big and diverse. In his mind, true democracy only works within a small and homogeneous society, which is not the case in the last couple thousand years. We will always have a caricature of democracy until there is full transparency of government organs and operators.

    Of course I am not only talking about Russia.
    All democracy requires is education. No need to spin it as some sort of dumb anti-diversity argument. Education and democracy are a long-term solution, it is good but slow. Dictatorship can be better, but only in short term. As ruskis are finding out, again and again.
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  10. #24690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Amazingly, NATO hasn't launched an attack on Russia for 80 years now, so I think it's safe to assume Russian leadership is well aware of the defensive nature of NATO. It's time to put down the satin gloves and give Russia a reason to whine... the reason for change? Survival. Russia needs to be pounded into submission until the last one acknowledges that their way did not protect them, that all their paranoia and posturing was in vain. Then occupy them for 50 years (and make no mistake, it WILL take that long, American public whining be damned) and re-educate them about what really happened inside and outside of Russia. And then fucking shower them in Western luxury. I don't mean the almost cynical McDonald's invasion of Russia.
    I've seen you propose this idea of occupying Russia for 50 years a couple of times now, but do you actually legitimately think that's a possible thing? Using generally accepted estimates, it would take somewhere in the range of 3.6 million troops to successfully occupy Russia just on a ratio of troops to population. That is more than the entire troop count of all of NATO combined if they were all sent there to live for 50 years without ever being allowed to come home. And that's not even counting the logistical issues of the massive size, spread out population, and unfavorable terrain. In practice, we weren't able to field enough troops in either Iraq or Afghanistan to successfully occupy either of them for half the time span you're suggesting, and both countries are significantly smaller and easier to manage than a Russian occupation would be.

    Whether or not we should do it is immaterial because we cannot. Even if you took nukes off the table and the Russian military surrendered without a shot fired, we simply are incapable of an operation of that scale for that duration. We don't have the manpower.

  11. #24691
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    I've seen you propose this idea of occupying Russia for 50 years a couple of times now, but do you actually legitimately think that's a possible thing? Using generally accepted estimates, it would take somewhere in the range of 3.6 million troops to successfully occupy Russia just on a ratio of troops to population. That is more than the entire troop count of all of NATO combined if they were all sent there to live for 50 years without ever being allowed to come home. And that's not even counting the logistical issues of the massive size, spread out population, and unfavorable terrain. In practice, we weren't able to field enough troops in either Iraq or Afghanistan to successfully occupy either of them for half the time span you're suggesting, and both countries are significantly smaller and easier to manage than a Russian occupation would be.

    Whether or not we should do it is immaterial because we cannot. Even if you took nukes off the table and the Russian military surrendered without a shot fired, we simply are incapable of an operation of that scale for that duration. We don't have the manpower.
    If you think about it, you'll only have to occupy the part that is European. Moscow, St. Petersburg and the likes. Everything else is fringe regions that will break away from Russia soon enough, given the chances and considering that they are sent to meat grinders rather than Moscovitans. Split it up among several countries, let China have Siberia and everything to the East of that. It's feasible, but people are scared to think big.

    Also, Germany is the perfect example of it working. Given that the average Russian is well oppressed and adheres to authority, even bad authority, chances are that after you've eliminated the violent Russians, the rest will be happy to taste regulated freedom for a while and see how it goes. This is quite different from Afghanistan, a country full of religious zealots living in an ideology that basically says "Die for the cause and you get 77 virgins to rape in the afterlife". Awesome, I've said it before, you cannot possibly win against fanatical Muslims. Whatever you do, they win. This is unlike Russians, who are very selfish indeed. Their will to preserve themselves and their status in society would make them comply all too willingly, given that you break their will first.
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  12. #24692
    If Russia trying to push traffic across the bridge without a proper structural inspection or even waiting for it to cool down sounds like an act of desperation it because it is. The bridge supplied the entire warfront west of Donestk. There is only one other route they can use and that has problems of its own. It comes through the Donestk region to Melitopol and continues west from there. Partisans in the Melitopol region have blown bridges along the line though and it is unknown if they have even been repaired. And even it they were, there is a very long stretch that is in Ukrainian artillery range as well.

    An actual structural engineer looked at what happened to the bridge. His view, given the style of the bridge and the damage to it, was t can't have been a truck bomb. The explosion had to have happened under the bridge. And in normal circumstances, it wouldn't have done much to the train line unless a fire started. So it was luck there was a train with fuel tankers on hand. A look at the the damage done to the steel railings and walkways says to him the box girders that make the bridge are probably also damaged beyond repair. Normally it would take months to fix. Russia can't afford that so are going to keep using it and hope for the best.

  13. #24693
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Russia can't afford that so are going to keep using it and hope for the best.
    Russians gonna russian. Nothing boosts morale like a bunch of trains and trucks falling to the water.

    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-10-09 at 12:03 PM.
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  14. #24694
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    I've seen you propose this idea of occupying Russia for 50 years a couple of times now, but do you actually legitimately think that's a possible thing? Using generally accepted estimates, it would take somewhere in the range of 3.6 million troops to successfully occupy Russia just on a ratio of troops to population. That is more than the entire troop count of all of NATO combined if they were all sent there to live for 50 years without ever being allowed to come home. And that's not even counting the logistical issues of the massive size, spread out population, and unfavorable terrain. In practice, we weren't able to field enough troops in either Iraq or Afghanistan to successfully occupy either of them for half the time span you're suggesting, and both countries are significantly smaller and easier to manage than a Russian occupation would be.

    Whether or not we should do it is immaterial because we cannot. Even if you took nukes off the table and the Russian military surrendered without a shot fired, we simply are incapable of an operation of that scale for that duration. We don't have the manpower.
    Ask the Netherlands tips about to hold a terrority for 50 years.. fuck faces held my province in a cuckold for 300years.

  15. #24695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    If you think about it, you'll only have to occupy the part that is European. Moscow, St. Petersburg and the likes. Everything else is fringe regions that will break away from Russia soon enough, given the chances and considering that they are sent to meat grinders rather than Moscovitans. Split it up among several countries, let China have Siberia and everything to the East of that. It's feasible, but people are scared to think big.

    Also, Germany is the perfect example of it working. Given that the average Russian is well oppressed and adheres to authority, even bad authority, chances are that after you've eliminated the violent Russians, the rest will be happy to taste regulated freedom for a while and see how it goes. This is quite different from Afghanistan, a country full of religious zealots living in an ideology that basically says "Die for the cause and you get 77 virgins to rape in the afterlife". Awesome, I've said it before, you cannot possibly win against fanatical Muslims. Whatever you do, they win. This is unlike Russians, who are very selfish indeed. Their will to preserve themselves and their status in society would make them comply all too willingly, given that you break their will first.
    This isn't Germany though. The WWII Allied military was larger in frontline manpower than the current US military (There was roughly 1.6 million Allied troops in Germany at the time of the surrender, compared to about 1.3 million active US military currently, not nearly all of which are infantry troops suitable to land occupation). Germany also had a huge carrot and stick incentive to play nice with the Allied occupation, because if they rebelled en masse and forced the troops out they'd simply be replaced by Russian troops, and anyone in West Germany could look across the border and see how much worse THAT idea was. It's also important that prior to the two world wars, Germany was a functioning member of Europe. There were people alive both in Germany and it's neighbors who could remember the German Empire being a respectable player on the international stage. I don't think anyone can say the same about Russia.

    And even with all that, the occupation of western Germany is a damn miracle that succeeded on a level that is truly mind-boggling. I would LOVE to see that success repeated, it would truly make the world a better place if it could be done, but I simply don't see the manpower or the logistical framework required to make it happen existing at this point in time. The WORST thing that we could do is rush-draft a bunch of people and then send poorly trained, undisciplined, people in as an occupation force. We have a glaring open wound right now as an example of what happens when someone does that.

  16. #24696
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Ask the Netherlands tips about to hold a terrority for 50 years.. fuck faces held my province in a cuckold for 300years.
    Which one would that be? Curious as I forgot which ones were "wingewesten".

    Also, not really the Netherlands I wager, rather the 7 provinces? Not quite the same thing. (Of course only Holland counts, but yeah, 7 provinces.)

  17. #24697
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    Been there, done that. Soviet collapse. Russia is fubar. You HAVE to occupy it and run the country for them, because Russia never had a decent Government. The rot and cultural violence is ingrained so deeply into the country, you'd probably need to ship 50% of the population into Gulags if you applied Western legal understanding to the situation.

    Let this sink in, Russians are invading a country, and despite all the tactical necessities of war and, you know, survival, their first - almost instinctive - reaction is to rape and pillage... They are animals a good 200 years lagging behind on the civilisation evolution timeline. And somehow we still think we need to treat them like raw eggs?

    Nah, fuck that. Turn the country into rubble, let them meditate on the state of their fucked up culture while they rebuild their cities brick by brick.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I tend to agree with this Russian poster. The main issue from a global politics point of view that I see is the cultural paranoia of Russia. Everything they do is an excuse for them to "defend themselves" and pretend like everyone is "out to get them".

    Amazingly, NATO hasn't launched an attack on Russia for 80 years now, so I think it's safe to assume Russian leadership is well aware of the defensive nature of NATO. It's time to put down the satin gloves and give Russia a reason to whine... the reason for change? Survival. Russia needs to be pounded into submission until the last one acknowledges that their way did not protect them, that all their paranoia and posturing was in vain. Then occupy them for 50 years (and make no mistake, it WILL take that long, American public whining be damned) and re-educate them about what really happened inside and outside of Russia. And then fucking shower them in Western luxury. I don't mean the almost cynical McDonald's invasion of Russia.

    Anyone else been embarassed about that? McDonald's opening in Moscow in the early 90s and Moscovitans standing in queues for hours to get hamburgers? I was like "Guys, their food is trash, why are you queueing up for it? It's the middle of the day not 3 am on your drunken bar crawl"

    What I mean is start building up their industry and shit properly, show them proper economics, not the crime economics they learned in the 90s.

    Oh before I forget, shoot all oligarchs. I mean, there's nothing gained by being nice to them, no knowledge lost. Just kill 'em.

    Edit: Their families, too. All of them. Not interested in trying to see if the son understands the logic, waste of our time. We've tried playing nice, I'm done with it. Do humanity a favour, be the asshole and remove them from the equation.
    Slant... stop flirting with me. You are making me blush.

  18. #24698
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Come now Slant, Russia has produced amazing culture, art, ballets, music and literature. That can't be erased. Their current insanity not withstanding.

    This does make me sometimes wonder how that happened, high culture on one side, complete troglodytes on the other.
    None of this is a product of the Russian Federation, or their predecessor the Soviet Union. Almost all of their culture, art, music and literature comes from the Russian Empire.

  19. #24699
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Which one would that be? Curious as I forgot which ones were "wingewesten".

    Also, not really the Netherlands I wager, rather the 7 provinces? Not quite the same thing. (Of course only Holland counts, but yeah, 7 provinces.)
    Noord-Brabant and Limburg were ''Wingewesten'' for 300 fucking years.

  20. #24700
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Noord-Brabant and Limburg were ''Wingewesten'' for 300 fucking years.
    Ah yes, those.

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