Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gabriel]

The bridge was as much of a 'military target' as a school or hospital soldiers are occupying. The 'point' of attack the bridge wasn't even accomplished. The civilian functions of the bridge took a decent blow while the trains kept chugging along.

Lul. The trains most definitely didn't keep on chugging. They drove one single empty passenger train with 3 carts over it for photo-op, and then closed it.

I think it bothers some people because it makes people re-examine how they view the war, even if it doesn't change that Russian is the bad guy and Ukraine is on the defense. They still want to maintain this Hollywood image of Russia being the bumping Ukraine and Ukraine being the small kid who decided to fight back. Ukraine is still that kid but turns out Ukraine knows some dirty fighting too.

Excellent. We should all learn from them.

[zorkuus]

I think it bothers some people because it makes people re-examine how they view the war, even if it doesn't change that Russian is the bad guy and Ukraine is on the defense. They still want to maintain this Hollywood image of Russia being the bumping Ukraine and Ukraine being the small kid who decided to fight back. Ukraine is still that kid but turns out Ukraine knows some dirty fighting too.

Wtf are you rambling on about?
Dirty fighting? Damn right they need to fight dirty against these war criminals. Infact they should fight much dirtier than this imo. They've been playing quite nice so far.

Russia is in the wrong here 100%. Ukraine is in the wrong 0%. Period. No amount of whataboutism is going to change that.

[Vakna]

Close up video of the state of the tracks on the Kerch bridge. Ain't nothing running on them until they are replaced at the least.

The fact that they took the carriage off but left the wheel base, and how much the tracks are deformed under them tells me that the wheels are probably welded to the track that this point lol.

[zealo]

@PACOX

That you think bombing a major logistics artery supplying an ongoing invasion is the equal to hitting a hospital or a school, says everything about how serious your opinions are worth taking here, which isn't a whole lot.

[Azadina]

It's one thing to be cheering for them to be getting their asses kicked in the know, yeah. But to be watching live footage of human beings literally getting split in half from explosions or crawling with all their limbs blown off and bleeding out while screaming in agony - and then viewers cheering "fuck those orcs!" - isn't that kind of straight-up fucked up?

I've been following combat footage hubs and logs and it's been a little more than disturbing how up-in-arms people are over it.

It's far less fucked up, than fantasizing about nuclear war; in the hopes of getting forcefully drafted and sent to that war. In which no doubt orc like behavior happens. And, in fact, is pretty much guaranteed to be the hidden motivation behind the fantasy.

[Crispin]

So Ukraine is calling Russia a terror state (which it is) while using a suicide bomber to bomb the bridge. Suicide bombing is terror.
I was never a fan of suicide bombings or fanatics.
On a side note, living next to Russia is worse than living in it.

Are you saying that the kamikaze pilots in WW2 were terrorists? fucking lol

[Vakna]

let's not pretend Ukraine isn't guilty of war crimes or shady shit. Remember that assassination of Darya Dugina was confirmed to be from Ukraine by US officials. They're also guilty of torturing Russian POWs. Spectators of the unfolding carnage in Ukraine are also ecstatic over Russians suffering the most brutal deaths possible. If you do go see combat footage, footage of Russians graphically bleeding out or getting exploded gets cheered on.

But given Russia is doing all those like a billion times more and started this whole thing, no one is going to really care about Ukrainian atrocities.

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

[PACOX]

Are you saying that the kamikaze pilots in WW2 were terrorists? fucking lol

How is that even relevant? They didn't even say Ukraine was bad, but that they don't care for the tactic, which many states do define as an act of terrorism whether the target is civilian or not. That's a whole different topic that many countries don't agree on even internally, let alone when examining history...as if Imperial Japan was somehow diminished in their comment.


Doesn't matter because evidence points away from the bridge explosion being a suicide bomb.

- - - Updated - - -

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

Wait what? No. War crimes are war crimes, period. Consequences are contextual though. A country being invaded shouldn't face the same scrunity for booby traps vs an invader, does not make booby traps okay. The only person claiming Ukraine should face international consequences is Putin. All other critism is related to the how the move alters the dynamics of the war (if any change at all) or commentary on the acts of warfare in general.

[YUPPIE]

at the end of the day, this is just a cycle in humanity and that's why dehumanization is wrong.

We would've genocided the Japanese and Germans out of existence if we held on to these dehumanizing beliefs. But given those two are seen as relatively alright and a part of the civilized world now, Russia will follow suit after this war ends.

It just needs Putin's death the same way the Axis powers went on the right track after their heads were executed (or in Hitler's case, suicide). That's all. And I don't see anyone objecting to that notion often.

[Iphie]

IMO when you are starting a war like this and willingly taking part in wanton aggression for no reason, you can't be the target of a war crime. The Russian military are subhuman scum, they are nothing, less than nothing. I would value the life of a random ant in my garden over the lives of an entire battalion of Russian troops. They have ceased to be considered human, and therefore in my eyes have no human rights. War crimes against insects isn't a thing.

Given the track record of The Hague in this conflict and their willingness or ability to enforce international law, my opinion here holds just as much official gravitas as theirs - just in case anyone comes up with "your opinion doesn't mean anything". Well, neither does The Hague's apparently.

Good thing you don't decide, also, good job learning how to dehumanise a group from the russians, I'm truly impressed. War crimes are war crimes, if Ukrainians started to summarily execute PoWs they'd be guilty of war crimes, regardless of what the PoWs are guilty of themselves.

As for the Hague, they only have jurisdiction where they get help from the local authorities. (Btw, neither Ukraine nor russia recognises the Hague...)

[YUPPIE]

about why the hague has no jurisdiction or say, and why most of the world has nothing meaningful to add:

remember why carefully, and why Joe Biden is trying to have this conflict end in such a way Russia loses but Putin can at least retire comfortably ala Pol Pot.

That is considered the ideal and only outcome.

[XDurionX]

I just want to illustrate that comparison is by no means random. The fact Putin namedropped Harry Potter indirectly when comparing himself to Rowling earlier this year makes me legitimately believe he's not just a fictional enthusiast, but given his mindset, definitely looks up to figures like Voldemort.

Citing a children's book is perfectly describing your grasp of geopolitics.

[Ivanstone]

I realize you probably agree and are on the Ukraines side and all - but the incorrect definition of terrorism bugged me >.>

You should take a look at his posting history.

He is very much not on Ukraine's side.

At least he can worship Putin while comfortable living in Sweden.

[Kralljin]

We would've genocided the Japanese and Germans out of existence if we held on to these dehumanizing beliefs. But given those two are seen as relatively alright and a part of the civilized world now, Russia will follow suit after this war ends.

Difference is that both Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally, Russia will not surrender, let alone unconditionally.

And also quite important, Germany was a useful tool during the upcoming cold war, which made comitting to ultimate vengeance not so smart because they would've lost a potentially useful ally or at worst, see germany turn fully towards communism.
Without the threat of communism, it was quite likely that Germany would've been turned into a giant potato field, because deindustrializing *and* separating Germany was absolutely on the table as an option post war.

And even then, Germany was still split and not a fully sovereign nation for almost half a decade, which is absolutely a nightmarish scenario for any nation state.

That's the crucial difference, while i'm not going to engage about this "hurrdurr Russian are orks" talk for that reason, i also am going to deny that going easy on Russia because of Germany / Japan is also faulty because those nations were fully occupied and frankly not sovereign for decades.

[PACOX]

Difference is that both Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally, Russia will not surrender, let alone unconditionally.

And also quite important, Germany was a useful tool during the upcoming cold war, which made comitting to ultimate vengeance not so smart because they would've lost a potentially useful ally or at worst, see germany turn fully towards communism.
Without the threat of communism, it was quite likely that Germany would've been turned into a giant potato field, because deindustrializing *and* separating Germany was absolutely on the table as an option post war.

And even then, Germany was still split and not a fully sovereign nation for almost half a decade, which is absolutely a nightmarish scenario for any nation state.

That's the crucial difference, while i'm not going to engage about this "hurrdurr Russian are orks" talk for that reason, i also am going to deny that going easy on Russia because of Germany / Japan is also faulty because those nations were fully occupied and frankly not sovereign for decades.

I know/hope your argument isn't "dehumanizing Russians is fine but not the genocidal fascist of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan."

It kind of comes off that way but ultimately kind of reinforces YUPPIE's point. If people who lived under Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were still treated like humans then so can Russians. You don't get to do warcrimes (which Ukraine hasn't really done any AFAIK) no matter which side of history you think you are on.


War crimes are war crimes because we as an international community view many of the acts as depraved even when people are actively shooting at one another.

[Kralljin]

I know/hope your argument isn't "dehumanizing Russians is fine but not the genocidal fascist of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan."

No, not really.

The point is pretty simple, one cannot go that easy on Russia because one is not able to exercise the same amount of control over Russia as the Allies did over Germany / Japan once this is over, that is the issue with the Germany / Japan <=> Russia ananlogy.
If any aid from the Allies had to gone to fund any dubious shit on Germany's / Japan's part, the Allies would've moved in hard and cleaned up that shit.

That's kinda the problem, i don't want to further demonize Russia, but i also am not naive to just blindly give them aid post war because the West sure as shit cannot enforce that any of those funds don't vanish on Oligarch's bank account or even worse to (re)fund their military.

[PACOX]

No, not really.

The point is pretty simple, one cannot go that easy on Russia because one is not able to exercise the same amount of control over Russia as the Allies did over Germany / Japan once this is over, that is the issue with the Germany / Japan <=> Russia ananlogy.

Ok.

I can't speak for YUPPIE for I don't think they were talking about going easy on Russia. I think they were just saying war crimes shouldn't be tolerated against the likes of Russia.

I don't think terms of WW2 apply to this war because even though the Allies were the good guys they were fighting on the offensive. Much easier to force a nation into an unconditional when you are on their doorstep and bombed their capital to rubble. Unfortunately Russia could just decide to walk away. Theres only so much the international community can do to them that hasn't already been done. No one is marching on Moscow. Any upheaval of Putin and the oligarchs will have to be from the inside. No occupation while the fascists stank is cleared out.

The plus is no one will feel obligated to help Russia out of its financial hole. Just need to find enough energy alternatives.

[Ripster42]

So Ukraine is calling Russia a terror state (which it is) while using a suicide bomber to bomb the bridge. Suicide bombing is terror.
I was never a fan of suicide bombings or fanatics.
On a side note, living next to Russia is worse than living in it.

Na, just like another poster here, you don't know the definition of the words you're using. This wasn't an attack meant to inspire terror, it was to affect logistics. It wouldn't matter if it was a suicide attack or not, it's not terrorism.

Also, your side note leaves the impression that russia shouldn't exist.

The bridge was as much of a 'military target' as a school or hospital soldiers are occupying. The 'point' of attack the bridge wasn't even accomplished. The civilian functions of the bridge took a decent blow while the trains kept chugging along.
.

Yeah, both tracks were out of commission for at least a day, and even now, only one of the two tracks is functional. Stop getting your information where you're getting it from. It's leading you to make incorrect conclusions.

The rest of your ruminations are tripe. Indiscriminate bombing of cities is a lot different from targeted attacks on infrastructure. Trying to equate the two with some garbage about "both sides engage in propaganda" is disgusting.

[jonnysensible]

be hard for Ukraine to respond in kind, how do you destroy the civilian infrastructure of a country like Russia where one fifth of people don't have indoor plumbing

[Kralljin]

I can't speak for YUPPIE for I don't think they were talking about going easy on Russia. I think they were just saying war crimes shouldn't be tolerated against the likes of Russia.

Just makes no sense in the context of war crimes because the Allies also certainly took the gloves off in WW2.
Not saying they were worse (they weren't), but even the Allies didn't want to prosecute Luftwaffe Officers at Nuremberg for bombing cities because they themselves turned any major German city to rubble during '43, '44 and '45, which would've been a massive display of double standard.

Allies accepted nothing but unconditional surrender, that's anything but going soft.

I don't think terms of WW2 apply to this war because even though the Allies were the good guys they were fighting on the offensive

The entire reason why they wanted unconditional surrender is because they wanted to avoid another WW1 scenario where Germany has strategically lost but was never pushed off enemy territory, thus feeding the stab in the back myth.

Germans had to accept that their forces were utterly defeated, even if the Nazis had just packed up their things and left occupied territories, the Allies would've pursued them into Germany to force their surrender.

The plus is no one will feel obligated to help Russia out of its financial hole. Just need to find enough energy alternatives.

Eh, politics waits for no one.

If we're at WW2, nobody wanted to help Germany either, but especially the US realized the economic and strategic value of Germany in the upcoming Cold war.
Russia still has a ton of natural resources, something countries like China will gladly buy and they would absolutely not mind to gain at least something out of this war.