Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kallisto]

It's more like 500-700000 now, and continues to grow. As has been said, if they'd shown half the courage of Iranian women this would be over. But they aren't against the war, just their involvement in it.

Again between life and death every sane rational person will choose life. Or is your life worthless. Being alive is ALWAYS the best choice until someone can prove that being dead isn't oblivion with everything being a waste.

[YUPPIE]

if this topic seems too convoluted by now, yeah that's the point I'm trying to make:

living is better. If I were a Russian that escaped the regime and drafting, what I would do is discard my cultural identity and nationality entirely and just eke out an obscure life far away from everything.

[Poopymonster]

That's gonna leave a dent in the economy...

That + the cannon fodder fed into the grinder, that's gonna leave a Trump sized crater in it.

[Corvus]

Again between life and death every sane rational person will choose life. Or is your life worthless. Being alive is ALWAYS the best choice until someone can prove that being dead isn't oblivion with everything being a waste.

And yet the Iranian women seem to think it worth it over the simple matter of having to wear a piece of cloth on their heads.

[Kaleredar]

Again between life and death every sane rational person will choose life. Or is your life worthless. Being alive is ALWAYS the best choice until someone can prove that being dead isn't oblivion with everything being a waste.

Some people feel a greater fealty for others, knowing that fighting and succeeding, even if they die, means that others get to live better and more securely than they did.

People keeping their heads down because they're afraid for their own lives is precisely what has caused so many issues in Russia, just like in every dictatorship.

[Gabriel]

if this topic seems too convoluted by now, yeah that's the point I'm trying to make:

living is better. If I were a Russian that escaped the regime and drafting, what I would do is discard my cultural identity and nationality entirely and just eke out an obscure life far away from everything.

Yes, but that isn't what they do, now is it? russians dodge the draft and get out of their country, and still continue supporting Putin.

And you are still missing the point by the way. If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill someone else or I blow your brains out, you are still a bad person if you do what I say.

[Crispin]

if this topic seems too convoluted by now, yeah that's the point I'm trying to make:

living is better. If I were a Russian that escaped the regime and drafting, what I would do is discard my cultural identity and nationality entirely and just eke out an obscure life far away from everything.

It's pretty obvious that had the Germans revolted in 1940, the German casualties and destruction of their country had been far from what it was.

Not much different in todays Russia, they'll get slaughtered in Ukraine for no purpose whatsoever. 300.000 men rioting for a regime change in Moscow is not something that can be stopped, but like you they'll chose the chickenshit route, and let children get killed in Ukraine.


And in the end you'll die anyway, you act as if life is perpetual. Apparently you'd rather live life in the gutter, than try to change it for the better. Which imo is truly a waste of a life.

[Iphie]

And you are still missing the point by the way. If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill someone else or I blow your brains out, you are still a bad person if you do what I say.

Wanna know something funny? In both the Finnish and Dutch legal systems that would be considered coercion and you would if not acquitted then at least eligible for reduced sentencing.

So no, in that scenario you would not be, by definition, "still a bad person".

(I can only speak about the Dutch and Finnish systems as I only have knowledge of those two. But I imagine it works similarly in other systems.)

[Gabriel]

Wanna know something funny? In both the Finnish and Dutch legal systems that would be considered coercion and you would if not acquitted then at least eligible for reduced sentencing.

So no, in that scenario you would not be, by definition, "still a bad person".

(I can only speak about the Dutch and Finnish systems as I only have knowledge of those two. But I imagine it works similarly in other systems.)

I'm not arguing the legality of it, but the morality. You are probably right about the legality tho.

[Specialka]

This is why I used the Nazi Reich as a historical example. Because historians are all in pretty clear agreement that the average German citizen, the average member of the German military in that period, was just as much a Nazi as Goering or Goebbels or Eichmann. That is the banality of evil; that literally all it takes is "I was just following orders" or "I just went along with it". That's what evil is. You didn't have to be an SS captain or the head of a death camp to be an evil Nazi, the vast majority fit that bill, and were fully supportive of the Nazi Reich and everything it stood for.*

What you're saying is that you'd have been a Nazi, in Nazi Germany. And you want us to believe that doesn't make you a "shitty person". Do you not see how that logic does not remotely follow?

* The caveat I'll allow on this is that they did not carry personal responsibility for the actions of the worst of them, but they do share the systemic responsibility for the horrors committed on their behalf and with their support. That's a matter of how much liability they personally carry, legally speaking, however, not their moral character.

How can you be so wrong ? Obviously not. You always take the easy way about those subjects without a hint of empathy.

That would be like saying that all French that were not in the Resistance were collaborators.

[DarkTZeratul]

I'm not arguing the legality of it, but the morality. You are probably right about the legality tho.

Honestly, I'm not even sure killing someone under those circumstances is necessarily morally wrong, either.

[Gabriel]

How can you be so wrong ? Obviously not. You always take the easy way about those subjects without a hint of empathy.

Bit thick coming from russiaboos.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, I'm not even sure killing someone under those circumstances is necessarily morally wrong, either.

Well it is. If you prioritize your own life over someone else to the point you are willing to pull the trigger, you are a piece of shit. Alive, but still a pos.

[Specialka]

Bit thick coming from russiaboos.

- - - Updated - - -



Well it is. If you priorities your own life over someone else to the point you are willing to pull the trigger, you are a piece of shit. Alive, but still a pos.

I do not know how you get that idea.

[Endus]

How can you be so wrong ? Obviously not. You always take the easy way about those subjects without a hint of empathy.

What, exactly, am I getting "wrong", in any way?

I know it's a hell of a lot easier to cast vague meaningless aspersions.

And if you're gonna talk about lack of fucking empathy, talk to the guy supporting authoritarian abuses and suggesting everyone should fall in line.

[Specialka]

What, exactly, am I getting "wrong", in any way?

I know it's a hell of a lot easier to cast vague meaningless aspersions.

And if you're gonna talk about lack of fucking empathy, talk to the guy supporting authoritarian abuses and suggesting everyone should fall in line.

All germans not openly opposing Hitler were Nazis ? Or did I get that wrong ?

[Endus]

All germans not openly opposing Hitler were Nazis ? Or did I get that wrong ?

That's pretty much the accurate definition of the word, historically speaking. What exactly are you confused about?

[Specialka]

That's pretty much the accurate definition of the word, historically speaking. What exactly are you confused about?

Like I edited my previous comment, that would be like saying that all French that were not in the Resistance were collaborators. And that is wrong, historically speaking.

[Endus]

Like I edited my previous comment, that would be like saying that all French that were not in the Resistance were collaborators. And that is wrong, historically speaking.

We're not talking about a conquered people. We're talking about the citizens who were active contributers to the Reich, and the members of the Wehrmacht, the active German military. And yes; a lot of French citizens became collaborators, for the reasons you're denying.

They were Nazis. All of them. Unless they were betraying that Reich in some form of resistance, whether violent or quiet.

That's what the word means.

Pushing anything else is ahistorical mythologizing that's generally been done to deny the responsibility for Nazi crimes against humanity falling on those who perpetrated them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_o...lean_Wehrmacht

It doesn't mean you had to be trying to murder Nazis. Hiding Jewish families, getting them papers to get them out of the Reich, performing poorly in factory work to harm the industrial machine serving the war, there were myriad ways Germans resisted the Nazis. If you just went along, though, yes. You were a Nazi. That's what the word means.

[Deianeira]

but I mentioned the Iran revolt. They're just getting slaughtered right now, and no one in the West is going to help them.

The problem is IF the west would send help, that help would be used by the regime saying "look the west wants to kill us all and invade us"

[Specialka]

We're not talking about a conquered people. We're talking about the citizens who were active contributers to the Reich, and the members of the Wehrmacht, the active German military. And yes; a lot of French citizens became collaborators, for the reasons you're denying.

They were Nazis. All of them. Unless they were betraying that Reich in some form of resistance, whether violent or quiet.

That's what the word means.

Pushing anything else is ahistorical mythologizing that's generally been done to deny the responsibility for Nazi crimes against humanity falling on those who perpetrated them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_o...lean_Wehrmacht

It doesn't mean you had to be trying to murder Nazis. Hiding Jewish families, getting them papers to get them out of the Reich, performing poorly in factory work to harm the industrial machine serving the war, there were myriad ways Germans resisted the Nazis. If you just went along, though, yes. You were a Nazi. That's what the word means.

You still realize that still does not mean that they were all nazis ? Again, words have meaning and a certain historical weight.