Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Specialka]

It is simple. If you'd accept orders to murder innocent people to avoid being killed yourself, you're a murderous asshole. "I was just following orders" is a pathetic excuse used by monsters to try and evade responsibility for their actions. Yes, if my country tried to draft me to push a criminal invasion of a sovereign nation to slaughter their citizens, I'd make for the woods. I'd do whatever it took to avoid getting drafted into that. If that meant being killed, that would be preferable. The only reason I'd go along with it would be if I thought I could engage in direct sabotage of the goals from within.

The draft is already forcing me away from my home, my family, my job. And the war is putting all that at risk. This can be justified in cases of defensive actions against an aggressor nation, but not in fueling aggression itself.

What you're asking is if any of us have moral codes or if we just kneejerk into whatever best fuels our self-interest in the moment. Yeah, an internal moral sense is a default for human beings. Lacking such a thing is a character failure if not an outright mental illness.

Case in point, thanks.

[Endus]

Bold word coming from behind your computer, armchair warrior.

You're sitting behind a computer as much as any of us. Have you signed up for service with your nation's military? I signed up with our Reserves, back in the day, though I got medicaled out due to an injury during basic training. Spirit's willing, flesh was weak. But my country doesn't behave like Russia, and if they did, I never would've joined up voluntarily. Cause, y'know, I have a moral code. Like nearly everyone.

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Case in point, thanks.

You don't have a point. You're just playing defense for monsters. You'd have argued that Eichmann did nothing wrong.

[Specialka]

You're sitting behind a computer as much as any of us. Have you signed up for service with your nation's military? I signed up with our Reserves, back in the day, though I got medicaled out due to an injury during basic training. Spirit's willing, flesh was weak. But my country doesn't behave like Russia, and if they did, I never would've joined up voluntarily. Cause, y'know, I have a moral code. Like nearly everyone.

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You don't have a point. You're just playing defense for monsters. You'd have argued that Eichmann did nothing wrong.

And the drafted joined voluntarily obviously.

And I have a point and you keep proving. Not my issue if you can't get it.

I guess for you, all those that participated in the Vel d'Hiv roundup should have been trialed, sentenced and executed.

[qwerty123456]

I am all for Ukraine victory but we should not rejoice at people's death, even if they are russian soldiers.

Russian recruits are being forced to go into massive debt buying their own supplies, being raped by other soldiers, pressured to do horrible shit like rape and murder civilians by other soldiers, go into battle knowing they are cannon fodder with almost no supplies, all while being told the Ukrainians have black magic wielding Nazi super soldiers. And all of this is happening because they are invading another country. Rejoicing in their death is probably the moral thing to do since if they do make it back home they are either going to be penniless with some serious ptsd or be all fine and keep the status quo in Russia so in another thirty years their grandkids can do the same thing. It's like when you wish someone suffering with a terminal illness would finally die so they aren't in constant pain.

[Kralljin]

Bold word coming from behind your computer, armchair warrior.

The point is however, if you are that much of a humanitarian to cry over enemy soldier being killed on soil they invaded, you awfully quickly end in a spot where glorification of killing something like Nazis should also be condemned, because the Nazis sure as shit also forcibly conscripted people, especially as the war went south for them.
And on that front, Russia certainly has no legs to stand on, which has turned the "great patriotic war" into a centerpiece of their culture.

While Russia isn't the same as Nazi Germany, both they are (or were) ruled by dictators that invaded other Nations for no good reason.
Frankly, the people forcibly recruited into the Wehrmacht had even an excuse because the Nazis had no qualms about going after the families of anyone refusing to fight / deserting, which is known as "Sippenhaft" (Kin liability).

As far as i know, Russia has so far not acted out any serious punitive actions against the families of deserters or anyone who has fled the country to escape conscription.

[zealo]

And same again.

Your utter inability to post anything of substance in response speaks for itself.

[Specialka]

The point is however, if you are that much of a humanitarian to cry over enemy soldier being killed on soil they invaded, you awfully quickly end in a spot where glorification of killing something like Nazis should also be condemned, because the Nazis sure as shit also forcibly conscripted people, especially as the war went south for them.
And on that front, Russia certainly has no legs to stand on, which has turned the "great patriotic war" into a centerpiece of their culture.

While Russia isn't the same as Nazi Germany, both they are (or were) ruled by dictators that invaded other Nations for no good reason.
Frankly, the people forcibly recruited into the Wehrmacht had even an excuse because the Nazis had no qualms about going after the families of anyone refusing to fight / deserting, which is known as "Sippenhaft" (Kin liability).

As far as i know, Russia has so far not acted out any serious punitive actions against the families of deserters or anyone who has fled the country to escape conscription.

I said that we should "rejoice" about people death whoever they are. Soldiers die in war, shocking I know.

[Makabreska]

I said that we should "rejoice" about people death whoever they are. Soldiers die in war, shocking I know.

Extremely naive sentiment and behaviour, if you think you can come to the thread describing and condemning Russian atrocities and demand that.

[Gabriel]

Muh both sides.

[Kralljin]

I said that we should "rejoice" about people death whoever they are. Soldiers die in war, shocking I know.

The point still stands that especially Russian culture has made a big deal out their war against the Nazis and even used that as propaganda to both justify and recruit for this war.

You cannot glorify WW2, but then be surprised that people are happy when the grunts of a murderous dictator the get killed, because that's what WW2 was about from the Allied PoV.

I am going to take a gamble and say that at least a decent amount of those that got blown up had some ancestor in their family that killed a bunch of Nazi soldier.
Did they think "Oh boy, my great grandfather killed some poor fuck that was forcibly recruited by Hitler" or rather "My Great Grandfather fought the Nazi scum!".

That's just out it is, anyone who wants to truly feel sorry for those people, should also feel the same way about a lot of Wehrmacht soldiers in WW2, because the situation they're in aren't that different.

[Specialka]

The point still stands that especially Russian culture has made a big deal out their war against the Nazis and even used that as propaganda to both justify and recruit for this war.

You cannot glorify WW2, but then be surprised that people are happy when the grunts of a murderous dictator the get killed, because that's what WW2 was about from the Allied PoV.

I am going to take a gamble and say that at least a decent amount of those that got blown up had some ancestor in their family that killed a bunch of Nazi soldier.
Did they think "Oh boy, my great grandfather killed some poor fuck that was forcibly recruited by Hitler" or rather "My Great Grandfather fought the Nazi scum!".

That's just out it is, anyone who wants to truly feel sorry for those people, should also feel the same way about a lot of Wehrmacht soldiers in WW2, because the situation they're in aren't that different.

So your point is ? Where did you see that I did not feel somehow "sorry" about those Wehrmacht soldiers ?

[Kralljin]

So your point is ? Where did you see that I did not feel somehow "sorry" about those Wehrmacht soldiers ?

1. Those people we're talking about certainly did not feel at large "sorry" for Wehrmacht soldiers
2. It's not really a very common stance to feel sorry for Nazi Soldiers

[Endus]

So your point is ? Where did you see that I did not feel somehow "sorry" about those Wehrmacht soldiers ?

Is this what we've come to? You should feel "sorry" for the Nazi soldiers who died being Nazis and trying to kill anyone who opposed the Nazis?

[Specialka]

1. Those people we're talking about certainly did not feel at large "sorry" for Wehrmacht soldiers
2. It's not really a very common stance to feel sorry for Nazi Soldiers

The Whermacht soldiers were not SS, though the Whermacht also did horrible things and committed war crimes.

[Canpinter]

You can feel bad about a bunch of people dieing when the only options they had where "run and likely get shot by your own side", "attack your officers and likely get shot and die" or "dig the hole you where told to and maybe die ". It dosnt change the fact that killing the necessity of Ukraine defending itself but does mean we shouldn't take some twisted glee from it.

[Endus]

The Whermacht soldiers were not SS

And? You didn't have to be a part of the SS to be a Nazi. Hitler and Goebbels weren't part of the SS either; were they not Nazis?

The Wehrmacht fought to defend the Nazi Reich and its principles, and further its goals. They were, every single last one of them, Nazis by definition.

Literally all you're doing is engaging in Nazi apologism at this point.

Specifically, this kind of bullshit historical revisionism, which was only ever used to defend and protect ex-Nazis; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_o...lean_Wehrmacht

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You can feel bad about a bunch of people dieing when the only options they had where "run and likely get shot by your own side", "attack your officers and likely get shot and die" or "dig the hole you where told to and maybe die ". It dosnt change the fact that killing the necessity of Ukraine defending itself but does mean we shouldn't take some twisted glee from it.

There's a difference between satisfaction that criminal invaders of a sovereign nation were killed in action by defenders of said nation, and being gleeful about it. I'll agree that the latter is gross, but satisfaction with that outcome is absolutely justified.

[Canpinter]

And? You didn't have to be a part of the SS to be a Nazi. Hitler and Goebbels weren't part of the SS either; were they not Nazis?

The Wehrmacht fought to defend the Nazi Reich and its principles, and further its goals. They were, every single last one of them, Nazis by definition.

Literally all you're doing is engaging in Nazi apologism at this point.

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There's a difference between satisfaction that criminal invaders of a sovereign nation were killed in action by defenders of said nation, and being gleeful about it. I'll agree that the latter is gross, but satisfaction with that outcome is absolutely justified.

Sure but there has been alot of very borderline gleeful joy here. One of the reasons why I hate people useing the term orc it allows people to more readily dehumanize, exact same thing that happens in WW2 with labeling Japanese as rats ect.

[Kralljin]

The Whermacht soldiers were not SS, though the Whermacht also did horrible things and committed war crimes.

No idea what the SS has to do with this discussion as the terminology of Nazi Soldier is generally applied to both Wehrmacht and SS.

Nevermind that the bulk of conscription was obviously into the Wehrmacht.

[Saradain]

Sure but there has been alot of very borderline gleeful joy here. One of the reasons why I hate people useing the term orc it allows people to more readily dehumanize, exact same thing that happens in WW2 with labeling Japanese as rats ect.

Exceptionally dehumanizing terms for exceptionally violent, murderous, raping hordes of animals who willfully take part in mass destruction of a sovereign nation, with no regrets even if part of them fled the mobilization to the West they so much hate, continuing their verbal diarrhea at the safe havens.

I have no problems calling nazi russians with terms like orc. Nor do I give a shit if I see a videoclip of them dying for real, in a great ball of fire.

If that makes me somehow a bad person, I'll gladly be the worst person on this planet. But that's a hard contest, I am at my PC, not raping civilians and then killing them (or in reverse order).

[Specialka]

No idea what the SS has to do with this discussion as the terminology of Nazi Soldier is generally applied to both Wehrmacht and SS.

Nevermind that the bulk of conscription was obviously into the Wehrmacht.

And it is wrong. SS were Nazi soldiers, Wehrmacht were German soldiers. Obviously, some were Nazis as well. But I know that nuance and precision is something hard to understand.