Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

So they announced it on state TV. Of course this is russia, so it is wise to remain sceptical until it actually happens. Would not put it past them to be lying.

If they are trying to retreat, its gong to be hard with the Ukrainians right behind them and with no proper bridges. They could take some really heavy losses trying to get over the Dnieper, especially in vehicles.

Ok, while we know russia lies about everything (how do you know a russian lies etc .) Is it just me or does it seem the narrative IS changing in russia?

I hear there are less baleful sounds coming from the state television, there's growing opposition to the war and so on.

I do think we shouldn't lift sanctions until they're all buggered off from Ukraine, obviously.

[Corvus]

Showing how confident they are of holding on to land they have stolen, russia is now digging trenchlines in Crimea.

https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/...tqcMD-9QRxN__Q

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russia is planning to bring back child labour due to economic difficulties caused by the sanctions they said weren't working.

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...Y1uZHkxo9DC2iw

[Kaleredar]

I do think we shouldn't lift sanctions until they're all buggered off from Ukraine, obviously.

Fuck it, extend the sanctions until after Ukraine is comfortably in a mutual defense agreement with NATO or the EU or something similar.

[Corvus]

As I've seen a number of people point out, the timing of the announcement is very interesting. Its been known for a while that russian commanders have wanted to pull out of Kherson but they held on until the day after the midterms to make the announcement. Almost like they didn't want to give anything that might help the democrats to defeat their stooges.

[enigma77]

I do think we shouldn't lift sanctions until they're all buggered off from Ukraine, obviously.

Wdym? The sanctions should not be lifted again until Russia has become a stable, democratic state, that peacefully co-exists with its neighbors.

In other words, never. I'm looking forward to Russia becoming a bigger, more difficult to govern, North Korea.

[Lathspell]

Wdym? The sanctions should not be lifted again until Russia has become a stable, democratic state, that peacefully co-exists with its neighbors.

In other words, never. I'm looking forward to Russia becoming a bigger, more difficult to govern, North Korea.

Also after they have compensated Ukraine in full for the damage they have done there. So never basically.

[Kaleredar]

Wdym? The sanctions should not be lifted again until Russia has become a stable, democratic state, that peacefully co-exists with its neighbors.

In other words, never. I'm looking forward to Russia becoming a bigger, more difficult to govern, North Korea.

I think Russia is far more susceptible to some form of internal collapse than North Korea. Up until... basically this year, Russians were free to travel and intermingle and communicate with the outside world. They can easily see how much better the outside world has it, and they don't have the complete dictator-worship, information control, or iron-tight borders that North Korea has.

This gap between Russia and the rest of the world is only going to increase. and their lives are only going to get worse.

People say that Russians are "too in love with Putin" or somesuch for there to be change, but... Russia's government has collapsed twice over the span of just a hair longer than a human lifetime. I see little reason to believe this Russia is suddenly "immune" to what sank two former Russian governments that were, frankly, far more powerful than the current one.

[Iphie]

Wdym? The sanctions should not be lifted again until Russia has become a stable, democratic state, that peacefully co-exists with its neighbors.

In other words, never. I'm looking forward to Russia becoming a bigger, more difficult to govern, North Korea.

What do you mean "what do you mean"? Isn't it obvious, until and unless russia buggers off out of all of Ukraine there can't be any talk of lifting any sanctions, and that's talk, meaning just because they buggered off doesn't mean they'll get relief immediately (unless there's something humanitarian that needs immediate addressing, meds or babyfood for example)

[enigma77]

What do you mean "what do you mean"? Isn't it obvious, until and unless russia buggers off out of all of Ukraine there can't be any talk of lifting any sanctions, and that's talk, meaning just because they buggered off doesn't mean they'll get relief immediately (unless there's something humanitarian that needs immediate addressing, meds or babyfood for example)

What do you mean "what do you mean "what do you mean"?"

They shouldn't get santion relief even after leaving Ukraine. Fuck them and keep fucking them.

We should settle for nothing less than the collapse of Russia as it is.

[Iphie]

What do you mean "what do you mean "what do you mean"?"

They shouldn't get santion relief even after leaving Ukraine. Fuck them and keep fucking them.

We should settle for nothing less than the collapse of Russia as it is.

Ah, my mistake I thought I was talking to a rational human being. Clearly I am not, I shan't make that mistake again.

[Gorsameth]

If you think the West won't drop sanctions as soon as justifiable to help their own economies recover I have a bridge to sell you.

They should not be lifted once Russia is out of Ukraine but they will be.

[zealo]

What do you mean "what do you mean "what do you mean"?"

They shouldn't get santion relief even after leaving Ukraine. Fuck them and keep fucking them.

We should settle for nothing less than the collapse of Russia as it is.

Complete collapse of Russia might be something Russia does to itself eventually, but that shouldn't be a core aim there.

E.g Russia has deported hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into Russia from eastern and southern Ukraine, sanctions reliefs are one of the measures the west can offer Ukraine as leverage in getting Russia to return them as a pressure point when it does come to genuine negotiations, but we're not at a point where that ought to begin yet.

[Lathspell]

If you think the West won't drop sanctions as soon as justifiable to help their own economies recover I have a bridge to sell you.

They should not be lifted once Russia is out of Ukraine but they will be.

The only thing anyone should negotiate with Russia about is when they will leave Ukraine, pay for rebuilding of the nation and deliver Putin to be sentenced for his crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

[Lahis]

The only thing anyone should negotiate with Russia about is when they will leave Ukraine, pay for rebuilding of the nation and deliver Putin to be sentenced for his crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

Germany is already quivering to reopen trade with Russia so they can get their cheap gas.

Sanctions will be dropped the second the big players can gain more from it than lose.

[Gorsameth]

The only thing anyone should negotiate with Russia about is when they will leave Ukraine, pay for rebuilding of the nation and deliver Putin to be sentenced for his crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

You keep talking about an ideal world, not reality.

Don't think about what should happen but look around at the actual factual real world and tell me I'm wrong.

[Lathspell]

You keep talking about an ideal world, not reality.

Don't think about what should happen but look around at the actual factual real world and tell me I'm wrong.

If the West lets Russia get away with this atrocity even a little bit they will do it again and soon. If what you say does happen I will be very worried for the future.

[Nymrohd]

Germany is already quivering to reopen trade with Russia so they can get their cheap gas.

Sanctions will be dropped the second the big players can gain more from it than lose.

I sincerely hope the US dares Germany to do that by applying sanctions that will affect them as well if they try to reopen trade.

[YUPPIE]

isn't the Republican Party inclined to do away with everything Biden has sanctioned Russia with in 2024

[Nymrohd]

isn't the Republican Party inclined to do away with everything Biden has sanctioned Russia with in 2024

No, a few deranged conspiracists in the Republican Party are. When the times comes for Ukraine support bills, they will pass the House with bipartisan support and sail through the Senate because beyond geopolitics, they are making crazy cash for their military industrial complex donors.

[Kralljin]

We should settle for nothing less than the collapse of Russia as it is.

I find this sort of talk unhelpful for the plain reason that serves nothing but gives an easy way to fuel Russian propaganda because "the West wants to destroy Russia" is an actual talking point within these circles, both before and especially since the war began.

It's bad for the same reason why the Morgenthau Plan blew into the American's face as after the plan was leaked to the press, field commanders started to complain that the German resistance against the Allies became even more stiff, because Nazi Leadership snatched up the plan to make it clear that the Allies really intent to destroy Germany.

If Russia has to be pushed out of Ukraine by force, then so be it, but the collapse / destruction of Russia should not be a talking point from the West because the West cannot realistically make that happen without escalating the war.

Push Russia out of Ukraine, remove Putin, then the West can talk, but the "collapse of Russia" is not a basis to negotiate on.

Germany is already quivering to reopen trade with Russia so they can get their cheap gas.

The problem is that the only people who are talking about this within Europe are largely groups that are extremely critical of the EU, be it left or right wing.

If Germany would just throw sanctions aside out of the blue, every Baltic nations will have 1939 / 1940 flashbacks, become even more critical of the EU because they fear impending betrayal, while the only ones supporting it are the likes of Orban and such.
While in the meantime, every nation that supports those sanctions would also be completely blindsided by it, even the rightwingers in nations like France and Italy had to support (altough with gnashing teeth) that the sanctions are proper.

At least as it stand right now, if sanctions were to be lifted by Germany alone, they would basically blow up the EU with this decision, which fucks its economic interests way more than not having cheap gas.