Russian invasion of Ukraine

[The Stormbringer]

This argument is even dumber than those arguments that human lives have no value whatsoever. Especially the second sentence.

Kallisto may not be a native English speaker. What I'm getting from their statement is, "Human lives are infinitely more valuable than lines on a map. Protecting yourself is paramount, and all measures should be taken to ensure your own safety."

What's stupid about that?

[Makabreska]

Kallisto may not be a native English speaker. What I'm getting from their statement is, "Human lives are infinitely more valuable than lines on a map. Protecting yourself is paramount, and all measures should be taken to ensure your own safety."

What's stupid about that?

Well, with this logic Ukraine should immediately surrender and withdraw all their troops to stop any further loss of life on their side. Since, ya know, these shrinking Ukrainian borders on the map are less important than their lives.

AKA dumb af logic that goes against any notion of self-preservation as a nation.

[The Stormbringer]

Well, with this logic Ukraine should immediately surrender and withdraw all their troops to stop any further loss of life on their side. Since, ya know, these shrinking Ukrainian borders on the map are less important than their lives.

No...? With that logic, Ukraine should be fighting like crazy and doing absolutely everything they can to save lives, not surrendering and giving up. Because it's not just the borders on the map that's in danger, it's actual Ukrainians in danger. Such as all the ones that have been murdered, killed in fighting, or kidnapped. They know that Russia won't just walk in and leave them all in peace. Russia will come in and kill and rape and pillage a bunch more of them.

Put another way, Ukraine should not be pulling any punches. They should be fighting dirty.

[Endus]

Kallisto may not be a native English speaker. What I'm getting from their statement is, "Human lives are infinitely more valuable than lines on a map. Protecting yourself is paramount, and all measures should be taken to ensure your own safety."

What's stupid about that?

In general, the idea that self-preservation comes above all else ignores that altruism is just as much of an instinctual drive, even knowing you'll likely die. It's why people jump in front of bullets, jump into raging rivers to save someone drowning, leap onto train tracks to save someone who fell when they can see the oncoming train.

Frankly, it's entirely justified to think less of the person who'd just stand there and watch, instead.

[The Stormbringer]

In general, the idea that self-preservation comes above all else ignores that altruism is just as much of an instinctual drive, even knowing you'll likely die. It's why people jump in front of bullets, jump into raging rivers to save someone drowning, leap onto train tracks to save someone who fell when they can see the oncoming train.

Frankly, it's entirely justified to think less of the person who'd just stand there and watch, instead.

I feel it goes without being said that some people value things (or other people) above themselves, and would willingly die for. However, there's also the airplane metaphor. In order to save other people (such as your family, friends, countrymen, etcetera), you must first save yourself. That's why they tell you to put an oxygen mask on yourself first before helping anyone else.

This doesn't apply in every scenario, like the 'jump in front of a bullet' one, but still.

[Endus]

I feel it goes without being said that some people value things (or other people) above themselves, and would willingly die for. However, there's also the airplane metaphor. In order to save other people (such as your family, friends, countrymen, etcetera), you must first save yourself. That's why they tell you to put an oxygen mask on yourself first before helping anyone else.

This doesn't apply in every scenario, like the 'jump in front of a bullet' one, but still.

In this case, we're talking about "slaughter innocent people to avoid being possibly killed yourself", specifically. I do not agree self-preservation is a valid argument, there.

[Canpinter]

In general, the idea that self-preservation comes above all else ignores that altruism is just as much of an instinctual drive, even knowing you'll likely die. It's why people jump in front of bullets, jump into raging rivers to save someone drowning, leap onto train tracks to save someone who fell when they can see the oncoming train.

Frankly, it's entirely justified to think less of the person who'd just stand there and watch, instead.

I mean this isn't really true otherwise heroic self sacrifice wouldn't be heroic it would just be the normal assumption of behavior.

[The Stormbringer]

In this case, we're talking about "slaughter innocent people to avoid being possibly killed yourself", specifically. I do not agree self-preservation is a valid argument, there.

Is that what Kallisto is arguing? I must have missed a very important part of the conversation, then. No, that's stupid. You would instead be trying to escape or kill the people trying to kill you, not killing people who have nothing to do with it. Wtf.

[Endus]

I mean this isn't really true otherwise heroic self sacrifice wouldn't be heroic it would just be the normal assumption of behavior.

And if you have the opportunity to be heroic, and choose not to be, that's a mark against you, isn't it?

Is that what Kallisto is arguing? I must have missed a very important part of the conversation, then. No, that's stupid. You would instead be trying to escape or kill the people trying to kill you, not killing people who have nothing to do with it. Wtf.

again this is basically insane belief that if Russians don't want to be murderers they should get themselves brutally beaten and killed. Nobody should be telling people that because it is insanity said by people who never had a hard day in their life.

I'm linking the quote weird because I don't want it to "ping" Kallisto since it's not really a direct response, but that's basically the post that started this. It really was a statement that you shouldn't judge Russian soldiers trying to slaughter Ukrainians, because they might have been beaten or even killed if they refused.

[The Stormbringer]

And if you have the opportunity to be heroic, and choose not to be, that's a mark against you, isn't it?

I'm linking the quote weird because I don't want it to "ping" Kallisto since it's not really a direct response, but that's basically the post that started this. It really was a statement that you shouldn't judge Russian soldiers trying to slaughter Ukrainians, because they might have been beaten or even killed if they refused.

Yeah, I don't agree with his position there... at all. The better solution would be to turn your gun on the person giving you the order to go slaughter people. Or find a time to sneak out and desert. Unless this is some sort of Saw-esque scenario where you have a death machine strapped to you, or your command officer is right behind you with a gun to your head like a 40k Commissar, then you have better solutions than shooting innocent people.

[Canpinter]

And if you have the opportunity to be heroic, and choose not to be, that's a mark against you, isn't it?.

Not really unless you have some unreasonably high expectations of human behavior. People seen to think that hero or coward are the only two options when there's a vast middle ground between them of just being a regular person.

[Specialka]

Not really unless you have some unreasonably high expectations of human behavior. People seen to think that hero or coward are the only two options when there's a vast middle ground between them of just being a regular person.

Remember who you are quoting.

[Vladier]

I'm linking the quote weird because I don't want it to "ping" Kallisto since it's not really a direct response, but that's basically the post that started this. It really was a statement that you shouldn't judge Russian soldiers trying to slaughter Ukrainians, because they might have been beaten or even killed if they refused.

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that the post was about Russian civilians not violently rebelling against their government, despite having no chance to actually succeed at it, not about soldiers.

Yeah, I don't agree with his position there... at all. The better solution would be to turn your gun on the person giving you the order to go slaughter people. Or find a time to sneak out and desert. Unless this is some sort of Saw-esque scenario where you have a death machine strapped to you, or your command officer is right behind you with a gun to your head like a 40k Commissar, then you have better solutions than shooting innocent people.

The unfortunate part is that Russian army does actually have political officers with guns to their soldiers' heads.

[Kallisto]

I'm linking the quote weird because I don't want it to "ping" Kallisto since it's not really a direct response, but that's basically the post that started this. It really was a statement that you shouldn't judge Russian soldiers trying to slaughter Ukrainians, because they might have been beaten or even killed if they refused.

I think some wires got crossed, it was about civilians that basically have nothing to do with the front line. Where if they do protest we've seen what happens, beatings and death. I wasn't talking about those on the front line.

As for lines on map. I've never hidden the fact I absolutely abhor any and all types of nationalism as looking at history it's shown to be a major contributor to not just wars pretty much most major ones in the last 150 years, but ethnic cleansing, genocide, barriers to families seeing each other if either one had to move or if lines on maps are just planted and used to split people up. It's just all negatives and a big force behind concepts like fascism, to the point it seems to be just the little brother with a nicer suit but just as vicious in intent.

Maybe being of mixed national background and having brexit putting up stupid barriers between myself and family may have also pushed a view point. But everything would be better if we stopped trying to have a "Here's a line on the map, this side good, that side inferior and don't be nice to them" that the concept of the nationstate is inherently pushing.

[Twdft]

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that the post was about Russian civilians not violently rebelling against their government, despite having no chance to actually succeed at it, not about soldiers.

I've been mentioning this a couple times in the past: a good 30 years ago the peoples all over eastern Europe brought their governments down, many of us live in freedom now because of it. Russians made the USSR crumble, they can bring down ruSSia too.

[Vakna]

again this is basically insane belief that if Russians don't want to be murderers they should get themselves brutally beaten and killed. Nobody should be telling people that because it is insanity said by people who never had a hard day in their life.

To be fair that's only relevant if a few people turn up to protest. If 100 million people turn up to protest what is law enforcement going to do? What is even the government going to do? Nothing at all is the answer to that question if you're curious, the Kremlin would fall in hours. If the Russian common folk really wanted to take back control of their country and their lives they could easily do it, they just need to all stand up at the same time.

So yes, they are part of the problem. People have power, not governments, that is the case and always has been the case - even in backwards shitscapes like Russia, people simply do not want to take that step and prefer being sheep.

[Cthulhu 2020]

again this is basically insane belief that if Russians don't want to be murderers they should get themselves brutally beaten and killed. Nobody should be telling people that because it is insanity said by people who never had a hard day in their life.

This moral grandstanding about "human life" is pathetic no matter who does it. Just stop. Not all human life is sacred. War crimes beget retribution.

- - - Updated - - -

I think Russia, like most people, expected the war to be over in days. Most actions result in blowback, the unforeseen results.

If they expected it to be over in days, they should have withdrawn days after failing their "three day war". What you've made is an excuse, pure and simple. Russia made the decision to keep going, valuing their pride over other people's lives. Why should their lives be valued when they deliberately throw away the lives of others?

[Edge-]

If they expected it to be over in days, they should have withdrawn days after failing their "three day war".

That's a fairly explicit admission of defeat, and an authoritarian leader like Putin can't have that (see the earlier linked video of the broadcaster refusing to talk about the withdrawal from Kherson as supporting it or criticizing it would both violate Russian law). He'll continue to double down until he can either double down no more, or finds some way to be able to claim victory in the face of a 9-month long embarrassment and the absolute destruction of the myth of the modern Russian military.

At this point I think Panama is feeling like they'd be in a pretty good position to defend themselves and they don't even have a standing military. This isn't to attempt to detract from the incredible efforts of Ukrainian soldiers (and the western support), but most to highlight just how Russia has basically voluntarily destroyed decades of propaganda in the span of a few months.

[Corvus]

Next step on the path to child soldiers - the Kremlin has announced compulsory military training will start in russian high schools from 2023.

[Deus Mortis]

Next step on the path to child soldiers - the Kremlin has announced compulsory military training will start in russian high schools from 2023.

They can't even supply their current army with clothes and weapons, I don't want to even think of what those kids are going to be training with.