1. #25881
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm linking the quote weird because I don't want it to "ping" Kallisto since it's not really a direct response, but that's basically the post that started this. It really was a statement that you shouldn't judge Russian soldiers trying to slaughter Ukrainians, because they might have been beaten or even killed if they refused.
    I think some wires got crossed, it was about civilians that basically have nothing to do with the front line. Where if they do protest we've seen what happens, beatings and death. I wasn't talking about those on the front line.

    As for lines on map. I've never hidden the fact I absolutely abhor any and all types of nationalism as looking at history it's shown to be a major contributor to not just wars pretty much most major ones in the last 150 years, but ethnic cleansing, genocide, barriers to families seeing each other if either one had to move or if lines on maps are just planted and used to split people up. It's just all negatives and a big force behind concepts like fascism, to the point it seems to be just the little brother with a nicer suit but just as vicious in intent.

    Maybe being of mixed national background and having brexit putting up stupid barriers between myself and family may have also pushed a view point. But everything would be better if we stopped trying to have a "Here's a line on the map, this side good, that side inferior and don't be nice to them" that the concept of the nationstate is inherently pushing.

  2. #25882
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladier View Post
    I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that the post was about Russian civilians not violently rebelling against their government, despite having no chance to actually succeed at it, not about soldiers.
    I've been mentioning this a couple times in the past: a good 30 years ago the peoples all over eastern Europe brought their governments down, many of us live in freedom now because of it. Russians made the USSR crumble, they can bring down ruSSia too.

  3. #25883
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    again this is basically insane belief that if Russians don't want to be murderers they should get themselves brutally beaten and killed. Nobody should be telling people that because it is insanity said by people who never had a hard day in their life.
    To be fair that's only relevant if a few people turn up to protest. If 100 million people turn up to protest what is law enforcement going to do? What is even the government going to do? Nothing at all is the answer to that question if you're curious, the Kremlin would fall in hours. If the Russian common folk really wanted to take back control of their country and their lives they could easily do it, they just need to all stand up at the same time.

    So yes, they are part of the problem. People have power, not governments, that is the case and always has been the case - even in backwards shitscapes like Russia, people simply do not want to take that step and prefer being sheep.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  4. #25884
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    again this is basically insane belief that if Russians don't want to be murderers they should get themselves brutally beaten and killed. Nobody should be telling people that because it is insanity said by people who never had a hard day in their life.
    This moral grandstanding about "human life" is pathetic no matter who does it. Just stop. Not all human life is sacred. War crimes beget retribution.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I think Russia, like most people, expected the war to be over in days. Most actions result in blowback, the unforeseen results.
    If they expected it to be over in days, they should have withdrawn days after failing their "three day war". What you've made is an excuse, pure and simple. Russia made the decision to keep going, valuing their pride over other people's lives. Why should their lives be valued when they deliberately throw away the lives of others?
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
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  5. #25885
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    If they expected it to be over in days, they should have withdrawn days after failing their "three day war".
    That's a fairly explicit admission of defeat, and an authoritarian leader like Putin can't have that (see the earlier linked video of the broadcaster refusing to talk about the withdrawal from Kherson as supporting it or criticizing it would both violate Russian law). He'll continue to double down until he can either double down no more, or finds some way to be able to claim victory in the face of a 9-month long embarrassment and the absolute destruction of the myth of the modern Russian military.

    At this point I think Panama is feeling like they'd be in a pretty good position to defend themselves and they don't even have a standing military. This isn't to attempt to detract from the incredible efforts of Ukrainian soldiers (and the western support), but most to highlight just how Russia has basically voluntarily destroyed decades of propaganda in the span of a few months.

  6. #25886

  7. #25887
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    They can't even supply their current army with clothes and weapons, I don't want to even think of what those kids are going to be training with.

  8. #25888
    Herald of the Titans D Luniz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    They can't even supply their current army with clothes and weapons, I don't want to even think of what those kids are going to be training with.
    copies of CS:Go?
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  9. #25889
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Welp, Neo-Soviet Union it is then.

  10. #25890
    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    copies of CS:Go?
    Or Sims 3, they seem to have a lot of copies of that laying around.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  11. #25891
    russian troops building up in belarus despite people adamantly believing lukashenko doesn't want to get too involved.

    this lukashenko character is polarizing. While he's all around evil, some days people claim he's not as stupid as he looks, other times that he is indeed that stupid. Which is important to consider for his role in this war.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  12. #25892
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    russian troops building up in belarus despite people adamantly believing lukashenko doesn't want to get too involved.
    what they going to do try and walk to kyiv again but this time against himars?

  13. #25893
    The russians in Belarus are at training camps. While some mobiks were just thrown to the frontlines as meatshields, at least some are getting some training. Given russias training facilities are limited, they are using Belarusian camps.

  14. #25894
    If Russia still exists after this, it's going to take them a few centuries to make up for this population loss.

  15. #25895
    Even before this their demographics were in dire straits. Modern birth trends mean they will likely never recover. That's part of the reason they are abducting so many people.

  16. #25896
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This moral grandstanding about "human life" is pathetic no matter who does it. Just stop. Not all human life is sacred. War crimes beget retribution.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If they expected it to be over in days, they should have withdrawn days after failing their "three day war". What you've made is an excuse, pure and simple. Russia made the decision to keep going, valuing their pride over other people's lives. Why should their lives be valued when they deliberately throw away the lives of others?
    War crimes beget justice. Never conflate justice with retribution.

  17. #25897
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    War crimes beget justice. Never conflate justice with retribution.
    You understand that consequences come an attacker's way, right?

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  18. #25898
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    what they going to do try and walk to kyiv again but this time against himars?
    you make it sound like the belarusian army is just another set of untrained thugs, not counting the russians
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  19. #25899
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I've been mentioning this a couple times in the past: a good 30 years ago the peoples all over eastern Europe brought their governments down, many of us live in freedom now because of it. Russians made the USSR crumble, they can bring down ruSSia too.
    The fall of USSR was accomplished with tacit support from Gorbachev who decided that keeping it intact would require too much bloodshed. He could've just suppressed the protests with military force, like he had done previously, but he found within himself the strength to admit defeat. Unarmed civilians realistically cannot do anything to stop and actually armed government that is prepared to use deadly force.

    I can easily imagine that, should a large protest ever form anywhere in Russia, Putin would suppress it with Rosgvardia while hiding in his palace, and should there be violence, all he would do is fire the ones in charge to make it seem like he disapproves and then blame the Collective West/USA/Anglo-Saxons for creating the protest. Also, no media would cover it, except for the part with Putin's "benevolence".

  20. #25900
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Possibly although I believe Gorbachev saw that the system of the USSR just wasn't workable anymore, the Warsaw pact had collapsed before that and the simple reality was there was no economic future for the USSR. The brain drain was significant and trying to maintain the status quo wasn't going to work. He tried to reform it under the the New Union Treaty which could have worked although some countries, like the Batlics, Georgia, Armenia and Moldova would have tried to leave all the same, how successful they would have been is another matter.

    The coup attempt put an end to that. Without the coup attempt perhaps we'd see a continued Soviet Union, under a different name, democratic and so on but still.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

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