Russian invasion of Ukraine

[zealo]

Then tell me what you did understand of what I wrote ?

Oh we understand what you write, people just aren't as dumb as to not understand what you're actually all about with the rhetoric you're pushing of laying the blame for this war on the west.

[Specialka]

The fact you constantly tone police and shed crocodile tears for russian soldiers. Guess what, for the Ukraine to win this war russians HAVE to die. One will not work without the other. And you can blame this solely on Putin. It's not Ukraine that started this war, it's not Ukraine that is using the dissolution of Ukraine as war goal.

Maybe you want people to done down on the jingoistic rhetoric? I can even understand that, but your posting history paints a picture of a guy constantly holding water for the russians aggressors. Maybe you don't want to, but this is the impression you leave here.

3 years ago i ran into a similar problem, i made a thread which was worded in a way that left space for interpretation i never intended, was heavily attacked by people who i though twisted my words (e.g.: Endus), and then flailed for 10 pages. Took a breath, read my own stuff again, and understood why this happened, and that is my responsibility to express myself as succinct as i can, because its not the job of others to interpret my stuff.

That is what happen when you interact with bad faith people.

[Pannonian]

That is what happen when you interact with bad faith people.

Well, claiming that "it's the problem of others!" is of course a way - i just doubt it is a way forward. Why not try it? To be honest, training to express myself in a more clear way didn't only help me in online discussion, but also in my professional life.

Of course its your decision, but if you know why it happens and people point it out, the self righteous indignation becomes a bit grating.

[Iphie]

You're not a native english speaker. If i claim something and a bunch of native english speakers don't understand it, I'd rather look at my own expression in a forgein language, than assume everyone else is stupid.

But that takes some mental maturity, and a modicum of self reflection, and going by your post history, that may not be your strong suit...

I'm not a native speaker of English either, yet I do see a lot of deliberate misunderstanding or plain old willful ignorance on the part of native speakers, who then turn it around and claim that you weren't clear.

It is of course up to us to make ourselves understood, but there's only so much you can do, at some point the fault is no longer with us. (and after 35+ years with this language as a secondary I'll be damned if someone makes the claim that I can't understand nuance.)

[Pannonian]

I'm not a native speaker of English either, yet I do see a lot of deliberate misunderstanding or plain old willful ignorance on the part of native speakers, who then turn it around and claim that you weren't clear.

It is of course up to us to make ourselves understood, but there's only so much you can do, at some point the fault is no longer with us. (and after 35+ years with this language as a secondary I'll be damned if someone makes the claim that I can't understand nuance.)

Well it is not fair, and as non native speakers we will always have a (slight) disadvantage, but what can you do? I mean, this is not a discussion board (especially politics) to convince other people. For most topics you will have 2 teams trying to score points vs. the other team, and bad expression is one of the easiest targets.

[Specialka]

Well, claiming that "it's the problem of others!" is of course a way - i just doubt it is a way forward. Why not try it? To be honest, training to express myself in a more clear way didn't only help me in online discussion, but also in my professional life.

Of course its your decision, but if you know why it happens and people point it out, the self righteous indignation becomes a bit grating.

I can't make it clearer than we should not cheer for the death of individuals, even russian soldiers. But we should cheer for Russia defeat. Let me see where you see interpretation here. Obviously, the latter will lead to the former, aka russian soldiers death, but there is a large difference between wishing for it and it being a consequence of you cheering for Ukraine victory.

And no, MMO-C is well known for being a nest of bad faith people who will willfully misunderstand what you are saying if you have the "bad luck" to not share their political view or agenda. I have this issue of interpretation only here, despite speaking to many native english speakers. Go figures.

[Pannonian]

I can't make it clearer than we should not cheer for the death of individuals, even russian soldiers. But we should cheer for Russia defeat. Let me see where you see interpretation here. Obviously, the latter will lead to the former, aka russian soldiers death, but there is a large difference between wishing for it and it being a consequence of you cheering for Ukraine victory.

And no, MMO-C is well known for being a nest of bad faith people who will willfully misunderstand what you are saying if you have the "bad luck" to not share their political view or agenda. I have this issue of interpretation only here, despite speaking to many native english speakers. Go figures.

But if you think that you will never get fair treatment here because you belong to the wrong side, why are you posting? Seriously, if the reality is like you claim (which i doubt tbh.) then you're only setting yourself up to fail.

E.g.: I'd never post on Breitbart, because yeah... i can only loose there.

[Specialka]

But if you think that you will never get fair treatment here because you belong to the wrong side, why are you posting? Seriously, if the reality is like you claim (which i doubt tbh.) then you're only setting yourself up to fail.

E.g.: I'd never post on Breitbart, because yeah... i can only loose there.

What is the point to always discuss with people who are in agreement with you ? That's called an echo chamber.

[Dontrike]

Yeah, and that is primitive and barbaric and nearly next to the level actually committing the pillaging and such. We can cheer at Russia defeat, but should not at the killing of individuals, even Russian soldiers.

Why shouldn't we be glad one there's less rapists, murderers, genocidal killers, and kidnappers around? I'm sorry, but I won't feel bad when one of them die, they had a chance to not do terrible things, but instead they decided to follow orders and many innocents have died. They chose to do those things and I'm okay being somewhat glad that they are gone.

I won't feel bad for being okay with terrible people being gone, just like with Hitler, just like various abusive family members I had, and just like any other person like them.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't make it clearer than we should not cheer for the death of individuals, even russian soldiers. But we should cheer for Russia defeat.

Unfortunately those Russian soldiers, that shot at kids and innocents and bombed schools and hospitals I might add, need to die for Russia to lose.

The only other way this is happening is if they fully surrender, pay for the damages and tragedies they caused, Putin is killed/tried, and potentially Russia being broken up.

It's okay you feel bad for those dying, but unfortunately few can offer sympathy to soldiers that had no problem pulling the trigger and killing a kid, bombing a hospital, or raping someone before killing them.

[Kralljin]

The only other way this is happening is if they fully surrender, pay for the damages and tragedies they caused, Putin is killed/tried, and potentially Russia being broken up.

You're going on this a bridge too far.

If you're talking about the individual soldier, i agree that they should surrender but if you take it that far that they should pay for damages (which they obviously can't), axe Putin (which they can't because they sit in a PoW camp, and possibly get murdered if there's a prisoner exchange) and then on top of that also just watch or (actively) aid in the dissolution of their country, it's just stupid rhetoric.
Because literally anything past surrendering is way beyond their control.

With this sort of talk, you're just going to find even less soldiers surrendering, which is bad for Ukraine as well because they then have to fight and kill them.
Anything past "surrender" needs to be negotiated with the Russian goverment, not its soldiers, and even then "you're getting broken up" isn't a basis to negotiate upon.

[Dontrike]

You're going on this a bridge too far.

If you're talking about the individual soldier,

I'm not talking about individual soldiers doing that, I was talking of the whole of Russia.

[D Luniz]

If you can link a soldier to looting (we find the washing machine in there house)
Then ya, make them return it and pay a penalty on top of it

[Kralljin]

I'm not talking about individual soldiers doing that, I was talking of the whole of Russia.

Yeah but Russia will not "fully surrender" unless you plan on invading actual Russian territory to force one.

If you can link a soldier to looting (we find the washing machine in there house)
Then ya, make them return it and pay a penalty on top of it

I'd be more curious how an average grunt (who seemingly cannot even afford a washing machine) has enough connections to get a washing machine onto some truck and delivered to their house.

Disregarding that it would require to search their house in Russia to verify whether they actually own it, which requires them or the russian goverment to agree to it.

[Twdft]

Why shouldn't we be glad one there's less rapists, murderers, genocidal killers, and kidnappers around? I'm sorry, but I won't feel bad when one of them die, they had a chance to not do terrible things, but instead they decided to follow orders and many innocents have died. They chose to do those things and I'm okay being somewhat glad that they are gone.

This is one of the few times I actually agree with Specialka. There is a difference between being glad there are fewer murderers, don't feeling bad about genocidal killers being killed on one hand and cheering on the killing of them. English isn't my native language either, but this is what Specialka wanted to convey with his usual numbnut condescending oneliners you would have to wade through to get to the one time he explained it in a halfway clear manner about 20 pages back.

[Warning]

After the victory in Kherson we need a new massive aid package for Ukraine. This is the time to totally crush any remaining hope Russia has of holding a single inch of Ukrainian territory. We need to show them the commitment of the west and how ridiculously outgunned and outclassed they are. This is the best way to save lives. I'd absolutely love to see another 40 billion military aid package going to Ukraine to absolutely shit all over what remains of Russia's army of peasants. With the midterm elections all but wrapped up now is the perfect time to set it in motion.

[Pannonian]

This is one of the few times I actually agree with Specialka. There is a difference between being glad there are fewer murderers, don't feeling bad about genocidal killers being killed on one hand and cheering on the killing of them. English isn't my native language either, but this is what Specialka wanted to convey with his usual numbnut condescending oneliners you would have to wade through to get to the one time he explained it in a halfway clear manner about 20 pages back.

I too will agree with the sentiment, though to be honest - there is a place and a time for everything - if you are in a subway 41 in london while being blitzed by the germans its maybe not the perfect place to remind someone that not all jerrys are evil. Especially if you give the aforementioned oneliners and show a bit of a victim complex.

Well, seems the russians are pushing for the dnepr in the north...

[YUPPIE]

After the victory in Kherson we need a new massive aid package for Ukraine. This is the time to totally crush any remaining hope Russia has of holding a single inch of Ukrainian territory. We need to show them the commitment of the west and how ridiculously outgunned and outclassed they are. This is the best way to save lives. I'd absolutely love to see another 40 billion military aid package going to Ukraine to absolutely shit all over what remains of Russia's army of peasants. With the midterm elections all but wrapped up now is the perfect time to set it in motion.

You don't want to push Russia into the metaphorical noose, like that. There's a reason we are still cautious with too much aid to Ukraine; that being they are dangerous and unpredictable.

[Veggie50]

You don't want to push Russia into the metaphorical noose, like that. There's a reason we are still cautious with too much aid to Ukraine; that being they are dangerous and unpredictable.

Unpredictable, sure… dangerous? Russia is less dangerous than north korea at the moment…

Sure, could be they have/use some form of nuke. Many analysts now openly doubt they still have working nukes though. The shelf life of nukes is pretty bad, and they require A LOT of maintenance. Somehow that doesn’t seem like Russias strong suite.

[Iphie]

Unpredictable, sure… dangerous? Russia is less dangerous than north korea at the moment…

Sure, could be they have/use some form of nuke. Many analysts now openly doubt they still have working nukes though. The shelf life of nukes is pretty bad, and they require A LOT of maintenance. Somehow that doesn’t seem like Russias strong suite.

A lot of maintenance for a lot of money on extremely valuable components, I don't want to test it, but, given the systemic corruption prevalent in russia, I would be surprised if not half the components have been sold and the other half not maintained.

[zealo]

Unpredictable, sure… dangerous? Russia is less dangerous than north korea at the moment…

Sure, could be they have/use some form of nuke. Many analysts now openly doubt they still have working nukes though. The shelf life of nukes is pretty bad, and they require A LOT of maintenance. Somehow that doesn’t seem like Russias strong suite.

Nobody wants a situation where that theory gets tested for how valid it is, but regardless I don't think Russia is about to resort to nukes so long as the war remains within the borders of pre 2014 at large.

Russian nuclear doctrine centres more on maintaining the integrity of the state apparatus, and not so much directly about territory in what in practise is peripheral regions in importance.