1. #26181
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    They said russian-made, not russian-fired. Some interesting wiggle room there.

    It'll be article 4, not article 5. No nukes today sorry.
    Addon to this.

    American and Russian (Soviet) arms have been killing the opposition for decades. Both sides open sell arms to adversaries of their opponent. Ukraine is using American bombs to kill Russians right now.


    Just because something was made in a particular area mean its an act of war from that area.


    Part of this is the result of arming a bunch of militia on both sides. They are going to use those weapons in ways they see regardless of the 'rules of war' established by both sides.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-11-16 at 03:04 AM.

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  2. #26182
    one of the things I'll never get is how people laugh at Russia's incompetence in Ukraine and them getting their asses kicked, but at the same time think them directly squaring off against NATO is going to have "world ending" repercussions. Like, logically, shouldn't that metaphorically be a guy with a rusted knife trying to take on a space marine with a plasma rifle?
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  3. #26183
    Ya'll should take it easy on YUPPIE, I get you need a villian since most the pro-trump, pro-kremlin posters have buggered off, but what he says isn't nearly as insane as some of what you accuse of him of - plus I am pretty sure we are generally on the same side here.

    I really thought these missiles hitting Poland would be Putins "oh shit!" moment, and they would be furiously making apologetic phone calls and press releases admitting it was a blunder - but just like the airliner they go the other way accusing the west of escalation. Then Lavrov has the balls to call anyone who says otherwise russaphobes.

    I mean who do these guys think they are fooling at this point?

  4. #26184
    If it wasn't fired from Russia as Biden suggests then does that also mean it wasn't fired by Russia? Is he implying it could have come from Belarus or even Ukraine in an air defence failure?

  5. #26185
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    If it wasn't fired from Russia as Biden suggests then does that also mean it wasn't fired by Russia? Is he implying it could have come from Belarus or even Ukraine in an air defence failure?
    I'd never trust Joe Biden on any matters in regards to Ukraine-Russia. Remember this is the guy who said he is always looking to give Putin an exit, and that one of the things he dreads most is a cornered Russia.

    He doesn't want to see Russia reformed. He just wants to avoid conflict altogether, even if that means being vague or obstructive with wordplay.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  6. #26186
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Man, Yuppie agitated af today. His fetish is being fed strongly.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #26187
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    If it wasn't fired from Russia as Biden suggests then does that also mean it wasn't fired by Russia? Is he implying it could have come from Belarus or even Ukraine in an air defence failure?
    Fired from does not rule out fired by. It could have been a sea launch, or from Belarus. And, while unlikely, the possibility of a Ukrainian misfire can't be ruled out. If it had been, I'm sure they would have admitted to it by now. All he was saying it was that it wasn't fired from Russia territory.

  8. #26188
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Well shit. Associated Press says that preliminary findings suggest rocket was fired by Ukrainians as a part of anti-air defence.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  9. #26189
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well shit. Associated Press says that preliminary findings suggest rocket was fired by Ukrainians as a part of anti-air defence.
    Ugh...I mean I can see it happening and then the Ukrainians blaming the russians but man would that be bad PR.

  10. #26190
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Ugh...I mean I can see it happening and then the Ukrainians blaming the russians but man would that be bad PR.
    If this is true. Then Ukrainian leaders should at the beginning gone with the cooperation route. Then also point out how this would not happen if Russia was not throwing missiles all over Ukraine.

  11. #26191
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Ugh...I mean I can see it happening and then the Ukrainians blaming the russians but man would that be bad PR.
    It wouldn't be good PR, but I don't think it would be bad. Or that bad.

    Ukraine obviously didn't intent to fire the missile at Poland, unless you want to dive into conspiracy theory with them faking a russian attack on a NATO member. This was, probably, either the result of equipment failing which, given its origin, isn't that unlikely, or it was human error. In which case, I get it. Whomever is in charge of handling Air defense systems at this point has probably been on the job for months, with little reprieve, and I don't think Ukraine has the manpower to make sure their servicemen get frequent RnR right now. They're probably exhaustet. Someone fucked up. It happens. It's tremendously sad that it cost human lives, but sadly, in war, this happens. We just tend not to care because it's not at our doorstep.

    All of this is assuming the preliminary findings are correct, of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    If this is true. Then Ukrainian leaders should at the beginning gone with the cooperation route. Then also point out how this would not happen if Russia was not throwing missiles all over Ukraine.
    War is messy. It is very well possible that Ukraine themselves had no idea it was them and wanted to wait for confirmation.

  12. #26192
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    That's...not that implausible...I mean the names are similar. (Though I guess not in russian)
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Assuming whoever was entering coordinates was using a standard keyboard like the rest of us and all...the K and the L are right next to each other. But I don't think you punch in the city you want to hit, or that you're doing a web search for lat/long coordinates before entering those in.

    Still, honestly the most "realistic" explanation I've seen so far.
    I doubt the conscript inputting the coordinates into the missiles was too worried about double checking he read the correct lines.

  13. #26193
    so probs ukrainian air defense (russian made lol). No article 5, no smashing orcs

    lol @ Oryx list : Russia - 7967, of which: destroyed: 4892, damaged: 191, abandoned: 299, captured: 2585

    Tanks (1491, of which destroyed: 856, damaged: 62, abandoned: 55, captured: 518)

    The tank losses alone are crazy. If Ukraine gained any ally in this war Russian forces are already so degraded and liquidated I just can't see them putting up much of a fight.

  14. #26194
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    so probs ukrainian air defense (russian made lol). No article 5, no smashing orcs

    lol @ Oryx list : Russia - 7967, of which: destroyed: 4892, damaged: 191, abandoned: 299, captured: 2585

    Tanks (1491, of which destroyed: 856, damaged: 62, abandoned: 55, captured: 518)

    The tank losses alone are crazy. If Ukraine gained any ally in this war Russian forces are already so degraded and liquidated I just can't see them putting up much of a fight.
    Article 5 was always going to be a stretch for two missiles which could have been a mistake. But we'll see how NATO proceeds outside of that article.

  15. #26195
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    The most likely nature is the air defense of Ukraine missed and was just sent as far as it could go, which was in poland.

    But even if it was a Ukrainian missle, it does not take blame away from Russia nor make the risk for Poland any less. If the bombardment of Ukraine is at the point, where its neighbor countries are in danger because of how Ukraine defends itself, Russia will still take most of the blame and poland still have to make decisions around that. Do they have to set up their own protection barrier around the border? Will this maybe be a common situation with the winter pushing for a more bombardment focused assault?
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  16. #26196
    Possibilities.

    1. Ukraine aimed at a object and missed.
    2. Russia used munitions for something other than its intended purpose again and messed up again.

    Both of them would be accidental because, let’s face it, neither of them would be willing to do that intentionally.

    It would kill Ukraines support and international reputation while the last thing Russia wants to a valid excuse to put anti-air defenses on their border or provoking NATO with a direct assault which this would do.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  17. #26197
    Seems like situation has not cleared for several hours yet. Likelihood for strayed rockets remains plausible.

    Which brings us to points such as:

    - Ukraine, using russian-made counter-rocketry to deflect russian rockets, had a misfire/malfunction.

    = Ukraine clearly needs that more advanced weapon supply aid, so we will not have this kind of shit happening again. Russia, being the genocidal aggressor that forces Ukraine to defend with everything they got obviously gets the blame as they should, no matter what kind of a field day certain people have when they think Ukraine is to blame for everything.

    - Once again, cool heads and unbiased investigation pays off. No intentional attack against NATO happened (if for sake of this post, we assume the truth was what I described above), no Article 5. The western nations are not pulling shit out of their asses to justify a war, unlike our Nazi Russia fans pretend.

    Hopefully the collective West begins to see Russia for what it is, so this illegal genocidal war can be goaded towards an end where Ukraine remains victorious, sovereign and drives off every russian orcish invader from their soil and restores Ukraine's rightful territory ownership (ergo Russia fucks off from Crimea as well, given Russia agreed long ago to not invade Ukraine ever, a pact they broke), which in turn means Ukraine can be molded into a proper EU candidate (and/or NATO, later on). Which means that the most peaceful period of human history we have going on (as funny as that sounds) can be extended and ensure terrorist states and dictatorships around the world have less power in general.

  18. #26198
    if this was ukraine that caused it, they need to end all international support for deception and deception of this scale
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  19. #26199
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    if this was ukraine that caused it, they need to end all international support for deception and deception of this scale
    Get a fucking grip.

  20. #26200
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    if this was ukraine that caused it, they need to end all international support for deception and deception of this scale
    What the fuck are you talking about?

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