Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Saradain]

"May not have come from Russia" could just as well mean that it came from Belarus, since vatniks have been firing their rockets from there the whole time.

The range would probably fit that kind of a theory as well. I do not see any reason to condemn Ukraine if the final results are going to be "misfired/stray rocket, ukrainian-fired, russian-made counter-rocketry". Defending a nation from complete annihilation is a perfectly valid reason to, well, defend.

It is clear that russian aggression has the potential to cause civilian suffering even outside Ukraine. And it does, as seen with grain trade. And there's only Russia to blame for it.

[Gabriel]

Yeah, but by stating that the country of origin is unknown it becomes easier to avoid escalation towards russia, basically it's an off ramp, and, as long as it doesn't happen again too soon, everybody will keep a cool head.

This is very true, and I don't know how to feel about it.

[Iphie]

This is very true, and I don't know how to feel about it.

You know, and savor this moment, I agree with you. I have no appetite for a big war, much less one with big boomers, but I do feel this cannot be left unanswered. (and I suspect your stance isn't too far off either.)

I do think a full investigation is the least that should be done as an answer.

[DarkAmbient]

Well, seems my earlier post calling Russia's denial bullshit was premature. Zelensky immediately called the incident a significant escalation, and his foreign minister called suggestions that it was a Ukrainian misfire a conspiracy theory. Today everyone seems rather quiet about where exactly this missile was fired from (except some anonymous US officials who told AP news the missile was fired from Ukraine) which suggests to me that Zelensky has been politely advised to STFU about it. He will have to make an apology.

[Saradain]

Well, seems my earlier post calling Russia's denial bullshit was premature. Zelensky immediately called the incident a significant escalation, and his foreign minister called suggestions that it was a Ukrainian misfire a conspiracy theory. Today everyone seems rather quiet about where exactly this missile was fired from (except some anonymous US officials who told AP news the missile was fired from Ukraine) which suggests to me that Zelensky has been politely advised to STFU about it. He will have to make an apology.

And that is perfectly acceptable and fine thing to do. People make mistakes, especially under the stress of a war.

We all know, should the rocket be found to be fired by russians - that it would be denied forever by Russia no matter how hard the evidence would be.

It only proves Ukraine is far more mature and logical than Russia. Trolls gonna be trolling about it for sure, but for all the bluster and screeching - it doesn't resurrect their dead orcs or re-occupy liberated lands

[YUPPIE]

Zelenksy has fucked up big time and lost a colossal amount of goodwill with this. We don't even know how Poland will respond, yet.

[Saradain]

Zelenksy has fucked up big time and lost a lot of goodwill with this.

Only in your irrational line of thinking. Otherwise we really would be in a world war if world leaders acted like you would.

A leader of a country slipped on a banana peel while visiting Russia? ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT BY RUSSIA!

Yeah, no. Present proof of your claims, or stay silent.

[YUPPIE]

Only in your irrational line of thinking. Otherwise we really would be in a world war if world leaders acted like you would.

A leader of a country slipped on a banana peel while visiting Russia? ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT BY RUSSIA!

Yeah, no. Present proof of your claims, or stay silent.

It's like the other person said, he started this debacle off by trying to blame Russia for lying, which almost led to NATO vs Russia for real. He better grovel and apologize soon.

If you think groveling is too strong here, TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE DIED FOR NO REASON.

[Saradain]

It's like the other person said, he started this off by trying to blame Russia. He better grovel and apologize soon.

Nope, I present you:

Overreacting in the heat of war, defensive reaction on something that definitely should not have happened. While russian orcish army invades his homeland, it is quite easy to think they are responsible for everything bad happening.

Simply jumping to conclusions before proper investigation and hard data.

Ironically, you fit this definition as well, but you cannot see it yourself.

You can start the groveling and apology yourself for making your "arguments".

If you think groveling is too strong here, TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE DIED FOR NO REASON.

HOW MANY UKRAINIAN INNOCENTS HAVE DIED BY NOW? FOR NO REASON!

[DarkAmbient]

And that is perfectly acceptable and fine thing to do. People make mistakes, especially under the stress of a war.

We all know, should the rocket be found to be fired by russians - that it would be denied forever by Russia no matter how hard the evidence would be.

It only proves Ukraine is far more mature and logical than Russia. Trolls gonna be trolling about it for sure, but for all the bluster and screeching - it doesn't resurrect their dead orcs or re-occupy liberated lands

Yes. But Ukraine's initial reaction was unfortunate. It made them look opportunistic. In the end nothing needs to happen over this except an admission and also an apology to Poland. I wonder if that will be done privately to deny Russia the propaganda coup. The deaths are unfortunate, but they wouldn't have happened if Ukraine didn't need to defend itself from Russian aggression. A reminder that in war the truth is not always what it seems.

Andrzej Duda and Jens Stoltenberg have both said this was a Ukrainian air defence failure.

[Gabriel]

I'm going to have aneurysm reading YUPPIE's posts.

[YUPPIE]

yesterday all day long, I really thought it was Russia that did this as a show of force. I had no reason to believe otherwise/

So now everyone that thought this would escalate or such looks like a massive fool.

[Iphie]

yesterday all day long, I really thought it was Russia that did this as a show of force. I had no reason to believe otherwise/

So now everyone that thought this would escalate or such looks like a massive fool.

Glad to see you are admitting to fitting that description.

[Kallisto]

yesterday all day long, I really thought it was Russia that did this as a show of force. I had no reason to believe otherwise/

So now everyone that thought this would escalate or such looks like a massive fool.

There are very few reasons why this would be a show of force by Russia. The fact that even during the cold war, when the Soviet Union was busting democratic revolutions in the 50s, 60s and 70s there was always one rule. For the love of Marx DO NOT GIVE NATO AN EXCUSE.

Now this also may come as a shock, but all sides want this war to end. It's just that (and in Ukraine's case rightfully so) they want the war to end of their terms only. Putin wants to end the war on his terms because Russia is bleeding, it is hurting and is going broke every day now and Putin needs something to say "I win.". Ukraine on their terms because of national survival and moral justice. NATO also on Ukraine's terms because it is in NATO interests to do so (For NATO the moral side is a perk, no country or organization when dealing with international diplomacy cares about it 90% of the time).

Push come to shove I'd say China would like a Ukraine win with Russia hurt just enough that it is still a player, but also having to run to China and become a good little puppet, where it will no longer fully antagonize the west since it hurts Chinese pockets.

[YUPPIE]

so now, how is ukraine going to make reparations to poland?

[Levelfive]

so now, how is ukraine going to make reparations to poland?

If Russia were not dropping bombs on Ukraine, Ukraine would have no reason to fire air defense missiles. Russia is still responsible. Those carrying water for a sociopath in the midst of his genocide against Ukrainians can kindly, or not, sod right the fuck off.

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As a side note, this is very good list to follow, levelheaded, no bullshit: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1500581907238731776

[diller]

Zelenksy has fucked up big time and lost a colossal amount of goodwill with this. We don't even know how Poland will respond, yet.

You are so out of touch with reality, you should seriously see a professional about your delusions.

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so now, how is ukraine going to make reparations to poland?

They are going to say they are sorry and that will be it, stop being overly dramatic.

[Saradain]

Interestingly, this rose up just now:

https://twitter.com/DedonderLudivin/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Based on current information, the strikes in #Poland seem to be a result of Ukrainian air defense. Pieces of Russian missiles and a Ukrainian interception missile are said to have landed in Poland. To be confirmed by ongoing investigations.

Actually would make sense. 1 intercepting rocket vs 1 russian-fired one, resulting in both flung towards wrong direction.

And greatest humour about it:

Russian-made rockets. Can't even utterly destroy each other.

Sad to see 2 innocents (once again) had to pay for russian-quality jokes of armaments. But also sad to see Ukraine had to start defending itself with barely any capability to fight a war, until West started flowing the goods in their hands.

We clearly need to ramp up the aid, so Ukraine will not even need to consider using russian armaments.

[YUPPIE]

They are going to say they are sorry and that will be it, stop being overly dramatic.

they killed two innocents, man. This isn't just collateral damage akin to traffic dispute where everyone was fine afterward. That's why I'm doubling down on this.

[Saradain]

they killed two innocents, man. This isn't just collateral damage akin to traffic dispute where everyone was fine afterward. That's why I'm doubling down on this.

You sure like to double down on 2 accidental victims that undeniably were caused by Russia invading in the first place, but choosing to ignore the several thousands of ukrainian ones specifically targeted by Russia.