1. #27581
    This whole farce makes me want Sweden to produce our own main battle tanks in the future (again). We shouldn't rely on suicidal appeasement governments for our national security (which the war on Ukraine very much is a question of).

  2. #27582
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    Let's not also forget that the threat of buying Tanks from another nation may be a political ploy.
    There is no threat, Poland is buying Korean tanks. It's not just buying them, it will be building them locally.

    Once that production line is up, Germany absolutely shouldn't be surprised if pretty much everyone in Eastern Europe switches to Polish built South Korean tanks.

    Throughout this entire saga Germany had to be draged along with NATO kicking and screaming. This is why everyone is fed up with them.

    It's not about what they might have ultimately ended up delivering but what it usually takes to get them to do anything.

    Remember when everyone was throwing every Javelin, NLAW, Stinger and RPG it could find in it's warehouses at Ukraine, Germany was sending 5000 helmets.

    Endless nagging, begging, bartering, whining and frustration is required from its allies for Germany to ever do anything.

    Not to mention on the issue of tanks specifically Germany is actively hindering and sabotaging its partners.

    I'd be willing to bet cash money if Russia invaded Poland or Estonia tomorrow and either of them invoked article 5, the US would be willing to nuke Moscow before Berlin would get past "But, can't we just talk to the Russians?"

    This war highlighted several massive issues in NATOs supply chains. Two that most stand out are the fact that Germany is an unreliable supplier and that including Switzerland in NATOs supply chains was a horrible mistake (it has a near monopoly on the manufacture of 35mm ammunition used in Bofors and Rhinemetall derived anti aircraft and IFV guns) as it has been blocking supplies since February invoking it's neutrality. Note the manufacturer of that ammo is actually Rhinemetall, it just happened to put the factories in Switzerland.

  3. #27583
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    There is no threat, Poland is buying Korean tanks. It's not just buying them, it will be building them locally.

    Once that production line is up, Germany absolutely shouldn't be surprised if pretty much everyone in Eastern Europe switches to Polish built South Korean tanks.

    Throughout this entire saga Germany had to be draged along with NATO kicking and screaming. This is why everyone is fed up with them.

    It's not about what they might have ultimately ended up delivering but what it usually takes to get them to do anything.

    Remember when everyone was throwing every Javelin, NLAW, Stinger and RPG it could find in it's warehouses at Ukraine, Germany was sending 5000 helmets.

    Endless nagging, begging, bartering, whining and frustration is required from its allies for Germany to ever do anything.

    Not to mention on the issue of tanks specifically Germany is actively hindering and sabotaging its partners.

    I'd be willing to bet cash money if Russia invaded Poland or Estonia tomorrow and either of them invoked article 5, the US would be willing to nuke Moscow before Berlin would get past "But, can't we just talk to the Russians?"

    This war highlighted several massive issues in NATOs supply chains. Two that most stand out are the fact that Germany is an unreliable supplier and that including Switzerland in NATOs supply chains was a horrible mistake (it has a near monopoly on the manufacture of 35mm ammunition used in Bofors and Rhinemetall derived anti aircraft and IFV guns) as it has been blocking supplies since February invoking it's neutrality. Note the manufacturer of that ammo is actually Rhinemetall, it just happened to put the factories in Switzerland.
    It definitely has shown how ready we are, and what needs to be done. I would also not oppose a Nordic-East Europe Alliance for peace and defense in the future. Clearly, Germany and to a lesser extent France (mostly vocally) are not the leaders they need to be.

  4. #27584
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    I'd be willing to bet cash money if Russia invaded Poland or Estonia tomorrow and either of them invoked article 5, the US would be willing to nuke Moscow before Berlin would get past "But, can't we just talk to the Russians?"
    Probably because nuking Russia means taking a gamble whether the West can take out Russia's Nuclear Arsenal before they can use it.

    Disregarding that, at this point your argument has shifted from "why" to just pointing out that Germany isn't doing enough, which i largely agree on.
    However, my argument still stands that this is based on the fact that any topic surrounding the military are pretty unpopular in germany.
    I don't think you would see germany stepping on the brakes if the population would be, to put it bluntly, not as pacifist.

  5. #27585
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't think you would see germany stepping on the brakes if the population would be, to put it bluntly, not as pacifist.
    Technically the population doesn't seem to be pacifist, not does it seem to oppose weapon deliveries. What it seems to be doing is rather deferring the decision to the Chancellery then nodding along to it.

    The line seems to be "We're doing enough if the government says we're doing enough."

    Look, nobody is going to hold it against Germany if Germany decides to be a pacifist. What Germany doesn't get to do is have it's cake and eat it to.

    It cannot be the backbone of the European defense industry, rake in the billions of from peacetime arms sales, then suddenly go "Why can't we be friends" when bullets start flying and Russia starts a major land war in Europe.

    This is why goodwill toward Germany is getting scarcer in Europe.

  6. #27586
    Yeah I don't get what's going on in my chancellors brain and he doesn't really explain it to me either.

    How the fuck does he think this shitshow will turn out in the long run that it would be necessary or even just the better choice to appease ruSSia? If Russia wins a NATO country will be next in a couple of years and German tanks will be used against Russia anyway. Does he want that, buy a couple years of uncertain non-direct conflict until he's out of office and make it the next chancellors problem? This is the big war of our time and it fucking frustrates me that my government is not able to accept that and act accordingly. We are already part of this war, it's just that so far Ukrainians do the fighting and dying for us.

  7. #27587
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    It cannot be the backbone of the European defense industry, rake in the billions of from peacetime arms sales, then suddenly go "Why can't we be friends" when bullets start flying and Russia starts a major land war in Europe.

    This is why goodwill toward Germany is getting scarcer in Europe.
    Has there been a special order for NATO to use Leopards or something? Or why do you frame it like Germany forced Leopards onto everyone and didn't allow the use of Leclerc MBTs or Challengers?
    Countries buy Leopards even though Germany doesn't even build them for stock in advance (because the factories aren't allowed to do so by law). Meaning every Leopard lost will probably take like 2 years to replace.
    So why does everyone do that, knowing that?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2023-01-14 at 07:50 PM.

  8. #27588
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Yeah I don't get what's going on in my chancellors brain and he doesn't really explain it to me either.

    How the fuck does he think this shitshow will turn out in the long run that it would be necessary or even just the better choice to appease ruSSia? If Russia wins a NATO country will be next in a couple of years and German tanks will be used against Russia anyway. Does he want that, buy a couple years of uncertain non-direct conflict until he's out of office and make it the next chancellors problem? This is the big war of our time and it fucking frustrates me that my government is not able to accept that and act accordingly. We are already part of this war, it's just that so far Ukrainians do the fighting and dying for us.
    The only logical explanation is that people like him are doing it for ideological reasons.

  9. #27589
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Look, nobody is going to hold it against Germany if Germany decides to be a pacifist. What Germany doesn't get to do is have it's cake and eat it to.
    I can tell you that the americans will be very pissed if they have to move all their military bases out of germany if they want to leave Nato and become a neutral state right in the middle of Europe.

    Putting aside that Germany is still a massive industrial power and if they decides to fully commit to neutrality, then any dream of a european military force are going to be very difficult to fulfill.

  10. #27590
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    So why does everyone do that, knowing that?
    In fact...Germany does sorta force other European countries to buy it's crap.

    Mostly through using various EU funds and contracts Germany secured majority shares in various European defense contractors. Also using various EU market liberalization mechanisms it's defense contractors ended up buying up various local suppliers.

    Germany essentially used the EU and it's predecessors to backdoor itself into a dominance in defense contracts across the countries where NATO and the EU overlaps.

    The Brits made their own tanks because of the whole Euroscepticism thing, and the French made their own because for a long time they weren't in NATO. That's how Sweden ended up with its own tanks and jets too.
    Last edited by Flarelaine; 2023-01-17 at 02:44 PM. Reason: fixed quote formatting, hope you don't mind

  11. #27591
    You guys keep forgetting the last time Germany had an army... Maybe theres a level of shame, and fear about the power they can hold if they do have an army, or they're afraid about sending tanks.. cna be translated as: ''oh look Germany as it AGAIN!''

    Can we cycle to how weak the Dutch response is? Its shameful and sadge, if you see how many dutch people seem to support Putin.. ''yeah but NATO WAS ENCROUCHING ON HIS BORDERS, SO HES IN HIS RIGHT TO DEFEND HIMSELF'' - kind of talk.

  12. #27592
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    You guys keep forgetting the last time Germany had an army... Maybe theres a level of shame, and fear about the power they can hold if they do have an army, or they're afraid about sending tanks.. cna be translated as: ''oh look Germany as it AGAIN!''

    Can we cycle to how weak the Dutch response is? Its shameful and sadge, if you see how many dutch people seem to support Putin.. ''yeah but NATO WAS ENCROUCHING ON HIS BORDERS, SO HES IN HIS RIGHT TO DEFEND HIMSELF'' - kind of talk.
    Has Thierry been stinking up the place lately? I haven't been paying attention to home that much lately. Is he still that Pro -pootin or has he finally seen the light?

  13. #27593
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    French made their own because for a long time they weren't in NATO.
    What. For how long exactly and why does that matter, considering at what time *Germany* started to exist etc.

    edit: Oh, you are probably talking about how france left the military command structure.

    Please explain to me *how* (or just point me towards where I can read about it) Germany forces other European countries to buy their tanks. How are the EU funds used?
    And why didn't other countries secure majority shares? Was it given to Germany by someone?
    What happened.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2023-01-14 at 11:42 PM.

  14. #27594
    email ur local mp tell them to give Ukraine everything it needs. rishi and ben are being based and sending some shit lets goooo

  15. #27595
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Comparing Scholz to Trump disingenuous.

    Scholz is Merkel 2.0, which follows the idiom of "leading from behind".
    Trump literally never lead from the front. He as literally the butt of every joke during the G20 summit he had.

  16. #27596
    Source is The Mirror, so would want confirmation from a reliable source, but they are saying the UK will be sending 4 Apaches armed with Hellfires.

    https://twitter.com/ukraine_map/stat...OJi8PhN2-pPqoQ

    - - - Updated - - -

    The UK has confirmed they are sending 14 Challenger 2s as well as 30 AS90 SPGs.

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/st...TgcFrGMP63FCqA

  17. #27597
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Source is The Mirror, so would want confirmation from a reliable source, but they are saying the UK will be sending 4 Apaches armed with Hellfires.

    https://twitter.com/ukraine_map/stat...OJi8PhN2-pPqoQ

    - - - Updated - - -

    The UK has confirmed they are sending 14 Challenger 2s as well as 30 AS90 SPGs.

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/st...TgcFrGMP63FCqA
    Hope its true, and I hope more and more heavy support ramps up. With the missile attacks on that apartment block in Dnipro today it is obvious Russia is just going to continue to war crime, the best we can do is make it so their male age demographics will be even more fucked for the next several decades.

  18. #27598
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Hope its true, and I hope more and more heavy support ramps up. With the missile attacks on that apartment block in Dnipro today it is obvious Russia is just going to continue to war crime, the best we can do is make it so their male age demographics will be even more fucked for the next several decades.
    As tragic and barbaric as it is, Russia randomly harming and potentially killing innocent people... doesn't seem like it's particularly effective.

    The people of Ukraine, by all senses, are committed to continue fighting, and I would assume that every destroyed apartment building or other similar civilian structure Russia destroys only strengthens Ukraine's resolve to continue fighting, rather than "terrifying" them into submission, as I assume Russia's plan is. "Shock and awe" doesn't work when Ukraine knows they possess the ability to resist and put their invaders in the ground.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  19. #27599
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    As tragic and barbaric as it is, Russia randomly harming and potentially killing innocent people... doesn't seem like it's particularly effective.

    The people of Ukraine, by all senses, are committed to continue fighting, and I would assume that every destroyed apartment building or other similar civilian structure Russia destroys only strengthens Ukraine's resolve to continue fighting, rather than "terrifying" them into submission, as I assume Russia's plan is. "Shock and awe" doesn't work when Ukraine knows they possess the ability to resist and put their invaders in the ground.
    In the end this war will wreck similar havoc on Ukraine's demographics as it does on russia's. Have you seen the estimates on numbers of civilians killed or kids kidnapped to Siberia? Russia isn't trying to wage war. It is doing a genocide.

  20. #27600
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    In the end this war will wreck similar havoc on Ukraine's demographics as it does on russia's. Have you seen the estimates on numbers of civilians killed or kids kidnapped to Siberia? Russia isn't trying to wage war. It is doing a genocide.
    Oh, I'm sure they're trying.

    But of course think of the aftermath. If Ukraine survives- chances that increase with every day they continue to do so- then western countries will be more than happy to pour resources into rebuilding Ukraine, if for no reason less cynical than to have a steadfast ally planted squarely on Russia's doorstep. With that investment will come better futures for the Ukrainians that survived the ordeal, and with investment comes opportunity that will drive immigration.

    Russia, meanwhile? They're digging a hole that only grows deeper, wearing their list of allies down ever thinner, and shutting doors on their future. Nobody is going to invest in rebuilding them, and if someone like, say, China does, it'll be to force them into being a vassal state, and not a country that can stand on its own.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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