Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kralljin]

Making sure to inform the other nation that their conflict will not stop the process and if they are approved then NATO will be moving into the area and they will either withdraw or be considered to be attacking NATO as their attack was already an indirect attack on NATO.

If you want to be strict, then Nato Membership was off the table for Ukraine since 2014 either way as long as this clause exists.

It was actually a catch 22 from the Ukraine perspective:
Insist that Crimea is a part of Ukraine and thus barr yourself from ever applying for Nato Membership
or
Concede Crimea to Russia but make an entry into Nato possible

Either way, Russia would've gotten something out of it.
That's the bloody irony, if the "goal" of that Invasion was to barr Ukraine from joining Nato, then Putin already accomplished that in 2014.

But barring that, there's still the fact that you would let a member join that is currently fighting a conflict where a fundamental rule is: Pick fight with one, pick a fight with all.
Even if you make some exclusions, getting a unanimous vote on that entry would be next to impossible, so you would also have to add some exclusions to article 5, which sure as shit will not get touched because that's one of those "no buts or rather "as few buts as possible" rules.

[Kallisto]

Sane people do want to avoid nuclear war, that includes Russia who knows they won't survive it. I didn't say just to go into Ukraine guns blazing.

I said, that near the start of this, NATO should have told Russia that this will not stop their admission and that the moment their admission is granted, NATO will be moving into Ukraine and any continued aggression would be considered an attack on NATO (Similar to how Russia tried to claim and attack on Crimea was an attack on Russia except it based on reality).

Do you think Russia would continue to press that offensive knowing they stood no chance and the counter offensive they might be dealing with if they do?

Don't go all Yuffie on this saying we shouldn't because Russia is some unhinged beast that would rape and eat your children and then nuke you if you looked at them wrong for doing it.

Russia did this because they knew that NATO wouldn't do anything about it and one of the main reasons they didn't sooner was hoping for their employee Trump was going to withdraw the USA from NATO and potentially even get them to aid Russia the moment it bogged down.

Yeah you're right, I came off a bit more strong and took it to a level beyond because I misread your intent. I'm not trying to go YUPPIE (For one YUPPIE with his wanting WW3 and Nukes to fly for his own wanting a glorious death isn't something I really want.) but honestly I still think ruling out the possibility and generally not being careful is a bit risky, especially when unintended consequences is always a thing.

[Elder Millennial]

It's important the repeat for emphasis.

We got to the point where Germany is no longer being asked for tanks. Germany is being asked to allow other countries to deliver German built tanks.

This is beyond frustrating at this point.

[KrayZ33]

To me it's funny that the German goverment says that there are no actual requests coming.

I mean... I don't even think they are lying (because it would be stupid to do so and would be called out by the leaders of countries making the requests formally). I actually believe no one is requesting anything over proper channels and everyone wants Germany to make the move.
It says so in the article that was posted earlier, as it does in others from weeks ago about when Poland made such statements.

"Several European governments have said they are ready to send German-made tanks to Ukraine, including Poland, Finland and Denmark, if they get approval from Berlin, though none has made a formal request."

"Mr. Scholz’s government hasn’t received any such requests, several officials said, but when it does, it said it would respond swiftly. The interagency process of approval could take anything from a few days to a few weeks, officials said."

Asked about demands by partners such as Poland to form such a tank alliance, a German government spokesperson said Monday he was “not aware of any such requests at the moment,” but stressed that “we constantly reassess the situation and then derive our closely internationally coordinated decisions from it.”


"If Germany relents and sends Leopard tanks, it is likely several other EU countries will too."

What's going on here? Did Poland *actually* want to send tanks? Or did they just hide behind Germany?
I mean, talking to the press and saying "we "consider" sending this and that... but you know we aren't allowed to" isn't worth shit.
Why wasn't a formal request made?

[Xyonai]

How incredibly on-brand for you to suggest some of the worst ideas imaginable.

At least it's a break from them being giddy with joy about Russian's bombing civilians. Or was that the other guy with a food based username? I get them mixed up sometimes.

[diller]

This is a perfect opportunity for Serbia to take Kosovo back.
Russia should send a nuke to Serbia and Russian nukes in the middle of Europe would mean check-mate to the west and free road to Kosovo.

I agree Russian should send a nuke on Serbia.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I would say accept them and tell Russia that any further aggression towards them will be considered an attack on NATO as they only attacked Ukraine to prevent them from joining it.

That would never have happened anyway, many countries would not have agreed to it so it wouldn't have passed.

Also they wouldn't have joined NATO short term anyway, just as they couldn't be in the EU - everyone forgets now but Ukraine was far from being a stable democracy before the war.

[Azadina]

NATO NEEDS to update their rules to ensure that conflicts over their joining NATO should never count as a conflict that prevents them from joining NATO which could help prevent future instances of this happening.

Not just that, but currently it's RuZZia that solely decides NATO memberships. No one else. RuZZia doesn't want someone in NATO? Start terrorism against them. Can't really start terrorism because it's already ongoing elsewhere? Have it's puppets stall the process indefinitely (like Finland and Sweden now experience).

[Shkar]

This idea is really dumb (straight out of grand strategy game), but is there any country that is politically aligned in such a way that they could feasibly get away with "declaring war" on Ukraine for the Russian occupied regions, and then just ignore the Ukrainians and attack the Russians?

Obviously too ridiculous to happen, but kind of a darkly humorous way for a russian proxy to swap sides and thumb their nose at Putin.

[Corvus]

Poland. After all, the russian soldiers are already being told they are fighting Polish soldiers who are trying to take over Ukraine.

[Iphie]

Poland. After all, the russian soldiers are already being told they are fighting Polish soldiers who are trying to take over Ukraine.

Poland might take offence at being called a russian proxy...

[Corvus]

Missed the proxy part.

[Shkar]

Poland might take offence at being called a russian proxy...

For what it's worth, the russian proxy was just what I figured the most likely category such a country would fall under. A Russian vassal that wanted to swap to siding with NATO and the west would have a reason to pretend to back up Russia, then strike against them instead.

I don't know the intricacies of NATO, but if what Corvus posted is accurate than Poland is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Presumably not allied directly with (but sympathetic to) Ukraine, and against Russia.

[Corvus]

Sweden has announced not only is it sending the Archer SPG but 50 CV90 IFVs. Plus even more NLAWS

[zealo]

The dollar store NATO that is CSTO is practically falling apart as Russia's efforts to conquer Ukraine stalls. The only geographically relevant country Russia has as an "ally" for such a thing in Belarus is already doing everything it can to avoid becoming a direct belligerent.

[Gabriel]

Based Poland getting tired of Germany's shit.

[Gorsameth]

The dollar store NATO that is CSTO is practically falling apart as Russia's efforts to conquer Ukraine stalls. The only geographically relevant country Russia has as an "ally" for such a thing in Belarus is already doing everything it can to avoid becoming a direct belligerent.

It died the moment Russia did nothing as Armenia requested assistance from Azerbaijan aggression.

[Flarelaine]

The way things look for Ukraine's NATO membership: Fucking forget it until June this year. Turkey will elect a president then. Let's hope for the best. If things turn out fine, it will only leave the Bonsai Duce* stalling Ukraine's membership and he's already under a lot of EU pressure to behave; maybe when it's only him the West will finally turn the screws enough to make him relent.

But once NATO finds the balls to admit a country in a dispute with Russia, they should also take Georgia and Moldova for good measure.


*Viktor Orbán.

[Twdft]

But once NATO finds the balls to admit a country in a dispute with Russia, they should also take Georgia and Moldova for good measure

The problem is that you'd ask 30 countries to immediately go to war since Ukraine joining would trigger article 5.

NATO bombed yugoslavia over war crimes, I'm at a point where I think NATO help kicking ruSSia out of Ukraine wouldn't be such a bad idea. Justification could be pretty much the same.

[zealo]

Sweden has announced not only is it sending the Archer SPG but 50 CV90 IFVs. Plus even more NLAWS

And at that, both of those are very modern systems.

The Archer is capable of setting up for doing a shoot and scoot with multiple consecutive rounds within a timespan of about a minute with a firing solution ready when arriving.



E.g see this video. That thing is about to ruin the days of some vatniks when Ukraine starts using them.

[Shadowferal]

The problem is that you'd ask 30 countries to immediately go to war since Ukraine joining would trigger article 5.

Or it'd have Russia immediately cease all military aggression since that'd article 5 would kick in.