1. #27761
    Missed the proxy part.

  2. #27762
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Poland might take offence at being called a russian proxy...
    For what it's worth, the russian proxy was just what I figured the most likely category such a country would fall under. A Russian vassal that wanted to swap to siding with NATO and the west would have a reason to pretend to back up Russia, then strike against them instead.

    I don't know the intricacies of NATO, but if what Corvus posted is accurate than Poland is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Presumably not allied directly with (but sympathetic to) Ukraine, and against Russia.

  3. #27763
    Sweden has announced not only is it sending the Archer SPG but 50 CV90 IFVs. Plus even more NLAWS

  4. #27764
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    The dollar store NATO that is CSTO is practically falling apart as Russia's efforts to conquer Ukraine stalls. The only geographically relevant country Russia has as an "ally" for such a thing in Belarus is already doing everything it can to avoid becoming a direct belligerent.

  5. #27765

    Based Poland getting tired of Germany's shit.

  6. #27766
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    The dollar store NATO that is CSTO is practically falling apart as Russia's efforts to conquer Ukraine stalls. The only geographically relevant country Russia has as an "ally" for such a thing in Belarus is already doing everything it can to avoid becoming a direct belligerent.
    It died the moment Russia did nothing as Armenia requested assistance from Azerbaijan aggression.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #27767
    The way things look for Ukraine's NATO membership: Fucking forget it until June this year. Turkey will elect a president then. Let's hope for the best. If things turn out fine, it will only leave the Bonsai Duce* stalling Ukraine's membership and he's already under a lot of EU pressure to behave; maybe when it's only him the West will finally turn the screws enough to make him relent.

    But once NATO finds the balls to admit a country in a dispute with Russia, they should also take Georgia and Moldova for good measure.


    *Viktor Orbán.

  8. #27768
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    But once NATO finds the balls to admit a country in a dispute with Russia, they should also take Georgia and Moldova for good measure
    The problem is that you'd ask 30 countries to immediately go to war since Ukraine joining would trigger article 5.

    NATO bombed yugoslavia over war crimes, I'm at a point where I think NATO help kicking ruSSia out of Ukraine wouldn't be such a bad idea. Justification could be pretty much the same.

  9. #27769
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Sweden has announced not only is it sending the Archer SPG but 50 CV90 IFVs. Plus even more NLAWS
    And at that, both of those are very modern systems.

    The Archer is capable of setting up for doing a shoot and scoot with multiple consecutive rounds within a timespan of about a minute with a firing solution ready when arriving.



    E.g see this video. That thing is about to ruin the days of some vatniks when Ukraine starts using them.

  10. #27770
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The problem is that you'd ask 30 countries to immediately go to war since Ukraine joining would trigger article 5.
    Or it'd have Russia immediately cease all military aggression since that'd article 5 would kick in.

  11. #27771
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Or it'd have Russia immediately cease all military aggression since that'd article 5 would kick in.
    Leaving that up to chance is just an insane viewpoint to have.

  12. #27772
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Or it'd have Russia immediately cease all military aggression since that'd article 5 would kick in.
    That's wishful thinking and Russia might actually extend their terror campaign to nations that they would be formally at war with.

    No Nation in europe will take a gamble on whether Putin will completely pull back because Nato will intervene.

  13. #27773
    The Lightbringer Cerilis's Avatar
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    Aren't they already fighting NATO according to their propaganda?

  14. #27774
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Leaving that up to chance is just an insane viewpoint to have.
    I'm not encouraging it, just looking at it.
    Right now the problem is contained, but at Ukrainian expense.

  15. #27775
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    The way things look for Ukraine's NATO membership: Fucking forget it until June this year. Turkey will elect a president then. Let's hope for the best. If things turn out fine, it will only leave the Bonsai Duce* stalling Ukraine's membership and he's already under a lot of EU pressure to behave; maybe when it's only him the West will finally turn the screws enough to make him relent.

    But once NATO finds the balls to admit a country in a dispute with Russia, they should also take Georgia and Moldova for good measure.
    Please stop with this. It's idealistic nonsense. It's well meaning but doesn't work in real life unfortunately.
    NATO is a defensive pact. As such it tries to avoid war as much as possible. Admitting a country into its ranks which immediately drags NATO into war is the opposite of that.

    Did I mention it's a defensive pact? Not a "let's help everyone" pact.

  16. #27776
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Please stop with this. It's idealistic nonsense. It's well meaning but doesn't work in real life unfortunately.
    NATO is a defensive pact. As such it tries to avoid war as much as possible. Admitting a country into its ranks which immediately drags NATO into war is the opposite of that.

    Did I mention it's a defensive pact? Not a "let's help everyone" pact.
    I mean people are not even doing the "Let's help everyone." part either. Ukraine isn't actually a unique situation when it comes to missile attacks on civilian targets and all the other heinous crimes Russia is doing. The unique part about it is that it is happening in Europe. Yemen for example has been having this situation happening to it (Civilian targets, hospitals, return attacks when emergancy services arrive, men rounded up and shot etc) by Saudis yet people don't even give it a second thought.

    Most of the loudest though seem to be from people in Eastern Europe, so I can emphasise their reasoning. They had decades of being under the Soviet's thumb and rightfully mistrust at best Moscow. Likely justified worry they would be next. Honestly I doubt it, since even during the Soviet times the biggest rule that Soviets had was "No matter what do not antagonize NATO.". Even when the Soviets when into Czechoslovakia after the leaders tried to split from Moscow that was the first rule, not to put themselves in a position for a shooting match. Russia is not the Soviet Union as much Putin wishes it was, it struggling with the easy part of the Ukraine war (the invasion), even if it made its way to Lviv and Odesa it would have the biggest of nightmares holding on as you have the least complient populace occupied since the Germans found out how non complient Yugoslavs and Greeks were in WW2. That's almost a 3-4 soldiers per civilian needed to keep the populace in check scenario and Russia just doesn't have the numbers for it.

    As for national leaders it's all the power game and knocking down what was thought to be a near peer without escalation to war is one of the best means to win the international game of poker were everyone cheats and lies. Leaving a 3 way match into a 2 way match with better odds for the West (well the US mostly but aligned interests and all that for Europe and few others) and China.

  17. #27777
    So the ruskis are now installing Pantsir systems on the roofs' of buildings in Moscow.

    Last edited by Gabriel; 2023-01-19 at 05:11 PM.

  18. #27778
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    So the ruskis are now installing Pantsir systems on the roofs' of buildings in Moscow.

    It's more useful than having them strapped to ships in the black sea...

  19. #27779
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    So the ruskis are now installing Pantsir systems on the roofs' of buildings in Moscow.

    [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Pf1tGDQ.png[G]
    What are the chances they shoot down one of their own planes

  20. #27780
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    What are the chances they shoot down one of their own planes
    Assuming they won't just fall through the ceiling...

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