Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Airlick]

does it have anything to do with when Henry Kissinger said Russia is an integral part of the balance of world order, or no

Nah. Germany would like nothing better than to keep the status quo and keep buying cheap gas, and Russia falling apart may lead to huge issues with the supply chains of Russian resources. Obviously they can't buy the resources with the war going on, but they may not be able to buy them ever again if Russia falls and turns into Africa 2.0. So the best case scenario for Germany (or at least it seems that's what they are thinking) is ending the war ASAP with a change in Russian leadership, but also letting them save some face.

For USA, it's because of China. China already has huge influence over Russia that will only grow as the West continues to isolate it, but actually breaking Russia's back means it will fall right into China's grasp. If Russia even survived, it would be a glorified vassal to China as opposed to being a player in its own rights (though we already know Russia isn't a first rate player, but it sees itself as such). If it doesn't survive, Siberia will basically be up for grabs and you can be certain China will be there first. They are already there, actually. So if Russia falls apart, you're counting on a small possibility that USA and EU can actually get the new states into their own sphere of influence rather than letting them fall to China.

So there's a lot to lose for the West if Ukraine wins. Obviously from moral standpoint Ukraine has to be supported as much as possible and Russia has to be punished hard, but that's not what politics is about. Just beating Russia isn't hard, either, we all knew it has 0 chance against NATO before the war. The issue is whether Russia can be beat without benefitting China too much, or if there's even a realistic scenario in which China isn't the biggest winner. Point being, at this point Russia isn't really a subject in the eyes of either USA or China, but it's one of the most important objects and possibly one that will decide the power struggle between them in the long run.

[Deus Mortis]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/rev...ne-2023-01-25/
In change of course, U.S. agrees to send 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine

WASHINGTON, Jan 25 (Reuters) - The United States announced on Wednesday it will supply Ukraine with 31 advanced M1 Abrams tanks worth $400 million in a matter of months, a decision that helped break a diplomatic logjam with Germany over how best to help Kyiv in its war against Russia.

President Joe Biden announced the decision at the White House, saying the tanks are needed to help the Ukrainians "improve their ability to maneuver in open terrain."

Biden thanked Germany for its decision to supply Ukraine with Leopard 2 tanks, and listed the other on-the-ground military hardware other NATO allies and other European countries were supplying. "Germany has really stepped up," he said.

Great news, hopefully this means all the logistics of keeping these tanks going has been worked out, and it is a nice stepping stone to get even more in the future. We have over 3,000 alone just sitting in storage so this won't make a dent in our stockpiles.

[YUPPIE]

So it seems like Russia has responded to the tanks being delivered; I mentioned last page I was excited about their impending response. And well, it's not much of anything compared to when Lavrov declared Russia was at open war with the US a week ago

Russia has hit out at the US and Germany as the countries prepare to send more tanks to Ukraine. Washington is expected to announce the delivery of dozens of M1 Abrams battle tanks, Reuters reports, while Germany has finally agreed to offer its Leopard 2 tanks after weeks of uncertainty.

Writing on the Russian Embassy to the US' Telegram, ambassador Anatoly Antonov accused Washington and Berlin of a "blatant provocation."

He said: "It is obvious that Washington is purposefully trying to inflict a strategic defeat on us.

"If the United States decides to supply tanks, then justifying such a step with arguments about 'defensive weapons' will definitely not work. This would be another blatant provocation against the Russian Federation."

[Iphie]

Gotta admit though, that headlien is hilarious:

Russia fumes NATO 'trying to inflict defeat on us' after tanks sent to Ukraine

No shit Sherlock.

[Elder Millennial]

He said: "It is obvious that Washington is purposefully trying to inflict a strategic defeat on us.

Washington's response.



Has this only dawned upon the Russians now?

[Kallisto]

The thing about the Abrams is that while it's been agreed, getting them there and having logistical support for them could take until 2024 to actually set up and have running, also they likely have to have some top-secret-level equipment removed. This is before the months of training (which can start now) take into effect. This is more "We're in it for the long haul" announcement than anything material in the near or mid-term.

[YUPPIE]

so zelenksy has also responded, and it kind of pisses me off somewhat. This is supposed to be great news for Ukraine, but he more or less says "that's nice and all, but we need more and it to be quicker so chop chop."

There was a discussion about how he is vocally becoming more irritable and entitled two pages ago, so I guess this could be considered a follow-up on that

[ghotihook]

So it seems like Russia has responded to the tanks being delivered; I mentioned last page I was excited about their impending response. And well, it's not much of anything compared to when Lavrov declared Russia was at open war with the US a week ago

Russia has hit out at the US and Germany as the countries prepare to send more tanks to Ukraine. Washington is expected to announce the delivery of dozens of M1 Abrams battle tanks, Reuters reports, while Germany has finally agreed to offer its Leopard 2 tanks after weeks of uncertainty.

Writing on the Russian Embassy to the US' Telegram, ambassador Anatoly Antonov accused Washington and Berlin of a "blatant provocation."

He said: "It is obvious that Washington is purposefully trying to inflict a strategic defeat on us.

"If the United States decides to supply tanks, then justifying such a step with arguments about 'defensive weapons' will definitely not work. This would be another blatant provocation against the Russian Federation."

Well no shit, nobody is stupid enough to think we have sent all this equipment out of the goodness of our hearts. This is literally the best way the US can not only test the skill and power of Russia, but also the relevance of both old and new tech without a single loss of our own.

- - - Updated - - -

so zelenksy has also responded, and it kind of pisses me off somewhat. This is supposed to be great news for Ukraine, but he more or less says "that's nice and all, but we need more and it to be quicker so chop chop."

There was a discussion about how he is vocally becoming more irritable and entitled two pages ago, so I guess this could be considered a follow-up on that

When thousands of your people are dying every week nothing is fast enough. I see no issue with how he is addressing this.

[Gabriel]

so zelenksy has also responded, and it kind of pisses me off somewhat. This is supposed to be great news for Ukraine, but he more or less says "that's nice and all, but we need more and it to be quicker so chop chop."

There was a discussion about how he is vocally becoming more irritable and entitled two pages ago, so I guess this could be considered a follow-up on that

Correction: you tried to make it an issue and everyone else told you to shut up.

[YUPPIE]

I see no issue with how he is addressing this.

I see a certain issue with this instance in particular. Given how reluctant and ticked off Schol was, Zelenksy subtly criticizing/tearing him down for his "slowness" after he finally ceded is kind of rude. Not to mention he essentially told the world stage that such behavior like that is unacceptable and innocent blood will be their hands, so unless you want to be complicit in that, don't think twice.

[ghotihook]

I see a certaim issue with this instance in particular. Given how reluctant and ticked off Schol was, Zelenksy subtly criticizing/tearing him down for his "slowness" after he finally ceded is kind of rude.

Yes YOU and only you. As Gabriel said, nobody agreed with you.

[Gorsameth]

so zelenksy has also responded, and it kind of pisses me off somewhat. This is supposed to be great news for Ukraine, but he more or less says "that's nice and all, but we need more and it to be quicker so chop chop."

There was a discussion about how he is vocally becoming more irritable and entitled two pages ago, so I guess this could be considered a follow-up on that

because 10 tanks are not going to make a meaningful impact.

[YUPPIE]

because 10 tanks are not going to make a meaningful impact.

If it's not going to make an impact, I don't think Russia would be fuming like they are now. Hence why it should be great news.

[AntiFascistVoter]

The Doomsday Clock being closer now than it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis is a dire warning of how dumb the Doomsday Clock is.

[Gorsameth]

If it's not going to make an impact, I don't think Russia would be fuming like they are now. Hence why it should be great news.

Because its not going to be limited to 10. Now that the 'taboo' is gone more are following. That is what Zelenksy is asking for and that is why Russia is mad.

[YUPPIE]

Because its not going to be limited to 10. Now that the 'taboo' is gone more are following. That is what Zelenksy is asking for and that is why Russia is mad.

makes sense. But still, do you think he should be able to tell people to hurry their asses up when most of the world is already by his side

[Gorsameth]

makes sense. But still, do you think he should be able to tell people to hurry their asses up when most of the world is already by his side

When his people are dying every day. Yes...

[zealo]

so zelenksy has also responded, and it kind of pisses me off somewhat. This is supposed to be great news for Ukraine, but he more or less says "that's nice and all, but we need more and it to be quicker so chop chop."

There was a discussion about how he is vocally becoming more irritable and entitled two pages ago, so I guess this could be considered a follow-up on that

And Zelensky is wholly right on wanting things to move along more, Ukraine needs the ability to do a major offensive spearheaded by armour to completely puncture Russian lines, even when the Russians are not doing the same sort of mistakes they did near Kharkiv.

It isn't without reason that they've been asking for MBTs to accompany the IFVs already pledged.

[YUPPIE]

When his people are dying every day. Yes...

Also, when I said "hurry their asses off" there was no hyperbole.

Off the topic of the battles themselves for a moment and observing their commander for a moment: Zelenksy rarely, if ever, cracks a smile nowadays. He always has a grim and very stern expression, and his tone is one that is never jovial. He still cracks jokes now and then, but it's very dry sarcasm. Most of the time he's pretty pissed and curt even with his allies and benefactors.

[Kallisto]

The Doomsday Clock being closer now than it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis is a dire warning of how dumb the Doomsday Clock is.

Not really the clock doesn't move outside of two points of the year. If it was constant it would have shoved itself seconds to midnight. It's less the clock is dumb, it's more most people don't know what it actually means and media love to headline it with clickbaity articles.