Russian invasion of Ukraine

[YUPPIE]

Yeah, I know, but I bet they're happy being quiet and sitting pretty right now.

My point is Russia won't be invading properly without being able to go through Ukraine.

Your point hinges on Ukraine emerging victorious, though. If Ukraine loses, Moldova is fucked, so hopefully, they don't lose.

[Corvus]

The russians in Moldova are mostly support troops, not combat, and are equipped even worse, at least prior to the war, than the rest of the russian army. Plus there is no way to supply them.

The threats have led Moldova to talk of dropping their neutrality and joining a military alliance for protection.

[YUPPIE]

The russians in Moldova are mostly support troops, not combat, and are equipped even worse, at least prior to the war, than the rest of the russian army. Plus there is no way to supply them.

as we saw/see in Ukraine, 1500+ Russians are more than enough to rape and murder civilians.

Remember the other poster said "cause disruption at least." That's what constitutes disruption, not waging an all-out war.

[postman1782]

Russians not invited to Auschwitz camp liberation commemoration

Why is this a big deal? Well, they were always invited before, and this is more or less saying "you're a Nazi." The Russians are already raging at the implications and disrespect.

Fuck em, they are committing a genocide right now in Ukraine.

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no, it's not simple.

Because apart from the last line, those conditions of reparation you laid out will take probably 50 years minimum for starters alone.

Many Russians are already aware of this and consider this whole affair a doomsday imposed on them by the West, without admitting it's their fault. They will never admit fault or accept blame. Never.

The fuck it isn't. Putin should be in the deepest hole they can find right now.

[PACOX]

Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

Its a question NATO members asked, struggled with, and obviously ended up saying yes to but I feel like it is necessary that the move has moved the war up a level.

* Ukraine deserves to defend itself and Russia deserves to get it ass kicked.


But was the situation bad enough to warrant tanks? I would say yes if I was in Ukraine because I would want all tools available to defend my phone. Is it right for NATO to push weapons they know will escalate the war and get more Ukrainians killed if Ukraine was handling business without the tanks. I also stopped following the war closely so idk.


Its like you see a person being bullied so you teach them how to fight. The person is able to defend themselves but now has to fight to keep from getting bullied. You give the person a knife so now they dont have to fight as hard knowing their bully will likely get a knife as well and was waiting for an excuse to use said knife. The kid you helped will now forever face unique consequences whether the bully stops or not, things like people coming at them to steal their knife or having to live with the life long consequences of being stabbed if/when they get stabbed.


I'm leaning on the side of "fuck it, give them more tanks" but I'm saying that as someone an world away that doesn't have to deal with the consequences of an escalated war and the fallout.

[YUPPIE]

The fuck it isn't.

Really isn't. Killing Putin isn't going to solve everything. In fact, I'd like to share with you all the fact the US today....

has officially designated Wagner a terror group and has noted it is not exactly in allegiance with Russia, least of all blind subservience to Putin. The statement notes Wagner and its master have their own ambitions.


So for all we know, Wagner could kill Putin and seize power. It will be a huge power struggle.

[jonnysensible]

Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

Its a question NATO members asked, struggled with, and obviously ended up saying yes to but I feel like it is necessary that the move has moved the war up a level.

* Ukraine deserves to defend itself and Russia deserves to get it ass kicked.


But was the situation bad enough to warrant tanks? I would say yes if I was in Ukraine because I would want all tools available to defend my phone. Is it right for NATO to push weapons they know will escalate the war and get more Ukrainians killed if Ukraine was handling business without the tanks. I also stopped following the war closely so idk.


Its like you see a person being bullied so you teach them how to fight. The person is able to defend themselves but now has to fight to keep from getting bullied. You give the person a knife so now they dont have to fight as hard knowing their bully will likely get a knife as well and was waiting for an excuse to use said knife. The kid you helped will now forever face unique consequences whether the bully stops or not, things like people coming at them to steal their knife or having to live with the life long consequences of being stabbed if/when they get stabbed.


I'm leaning on the side of "fuck it, give them more tanks" but I'm saying that as someone an world away that doesn't have to deal with the consequences of an escalated war and the fallout.

tanks arent a silver bullet but will allow Ukraine to defend themselves from the Russian invasion and are useful for storming Russian defensive positions counter offensives. Escalation is nonsense, what can Russia escalate too when it has already pulled all of its levers?

Whats the alternative let the bully kill them all without fighting?

Really isn't. Killing Putin isn't going to solve everything. In fact, I'd like to share with you all the fact the US today....

has officially designated Wagner a terror group and has noted it is not exactly in allegiance with Russia, least of all blind subservience to Putin. The statement notes Wagner and its master have their own ambitions.


So for all we know, Wagner could kill Putin and seize power. It will be a huge power struggle.

Prigozhin is deeply unpopular in Moscow. Fantasy nonsense.

[Kaleredar]

Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

Its a question NATO members asked, struggled with, and obviously ended up saying yes to but I feel like it is necessary that the move has moved the war up a level.

* Ukraine deserves to defend itself and Russia deserves to get it ass kicked.


But was the situation bad enough to warrant tanks? I would say yes if I was in Ukraine because I would want all tools available to defend my phone. Is it right for NATO to push weapons they know will escalate the war and get more Ukrainians killed if Ukraine was handling business without the tanks. I also stopped following the war closely so idk.


Its like you see a person being bullied so you teach them how to fight. The person is able to defend themselves but now has to fight to keep from getting bullied. You give the person a knife so now they dont have to fight as hard knowing their bully will likely get a knife as well and was waiting for an excuse to use said knife. The kid you helped will now forever face unique consequences whether the bully stops or not, things like people coming at them to steal their knife or having to live with the life long consequences of being stabbed if/when they get stabbed.


I'm leaning on the side of "fuck it, give them more tanks" but I'm saying that as someone an world away that doesn't have to deal with the consequences of an escalated war and the fallout.

The fight is already "escalated;" Russia hasn't been "going easy" on Ukraine and somehow this is going to push them some over some line. Russia is throwing literally all they have into this short of mobilizing their population for actual war, and that's only because they fear the internal backlash such a move would cause within Russia itself.

Russia's "response" is only ever amount to the same brutal but pointless nonsense they'd do anyway: blow up a few more civilian buildings and rush more of their soldiers into a meat grinder. Stuff they were going to do anyway, whether Ukraine "gave them a reason" to do it or not.

[YUPPIE]

Prigozhin is deeply unpopular in Moscow. Fantasy nonsense.

assuming he hypothetically does rise to the top, do you think the Russian citizens are going to do anything...? No. What they think of him doesn't matter. And it's already common knowledge this guy desires nothing but power.

All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

And you people should be scared of the fact Wagner is not on anyone's leash.

[Mazza]

Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

Its a question NATO members asked, struggled with, and obviously ended up saying yes to but I feel like it is necessary that the move has moved the war up a level.

* Ukraine deserves to defend itself and Russia deserves to get it ass kicked.


But was the situation bad enough to warrant tanks? I would say yes if I was in Ukraine because I would want all tools available to defend my phone. Is it right for NATO to push weapons they know will escalate the war and get more Ukrainians killed if Ukraine was handling business without the tanks. I also stopped following the war closely so idk.


Its like you see a person being bullied so you teach them how to fight. The person is able to defend themselves but now has to fight to keep from getting bullied. You give the person a knife so now they dont have to fight as hard knowing their bully will likely get a knife as well and was waiting for an excuse to use said knife. The kid you helped will now forever face unique consequences whether the bully stops or not, things like people coming at them to steal their knife or having to live with the life long consequences of being stabbed if/when they get stabbed.


I'm leaning on the side of "fuck it, give them more tanks" but I'm saying that as someone an world away that doesn't have to deal with the consequences of an escalated war and the fallout.

The thing is, it doesn't look like Russia really has good tools to deal with these NATO country tanks. Using your example, the kid is getting body armor, a samurai sword and the training to efficiently wield it while the bully is wearing paper and wields a dull machete. That might be a slight exageration, but the fact remains that just like with HIMARs Russia has no matching tech to counter these. In response, they can only keep doing what they are doing already and every edge Ukraine gets just makes that harder and more costly.

[Iphie]

All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

Loyalty is fickle, they are all loyal to their own lives and putin keeps them breathing so he's useful, for now. I have no illusions that if and when putin slips up there's plenty of people who will try for the big chair. Some will have a better chance than others.

As such you can probably say no one is really totally loyal to putin, such is the way of dictatorships.

[PACOX]

tanks arent a silver bullet but will allow Ukraine to defend themselves from the Russian invasion and are useful for storming Russian defensive positions counter offensives. Escalation is nonsense, what can Russia escalate too when it has already pulled all of its levers?

Whats the alternative let the bully kill them all without fighting?

I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?

Going along with my earlier analogy, it's the difference between the person being bullied coming to you saying "give me a knife I need to cut this fool" vs you giving them a knife they don't know how to use out of the then announcing it to the bully, so now the bully knows to bring a knife to the next fight.

Russia doesn't have the power to force Ukraine into submission but they still have enough for brutal retaliatory strikes. Did Ukraine say they were ready for that action or did NATO kind of put the knife their hands?

[Mazza]

I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?

IIRC, Zelensky has been asking for heavier weaponry including tanks for a good while now, so yes, Ukraine sure did ask.

[YUPPIE]

Loyalty is fickle, they are all loyal to their own lives and putin keeps them breathing so he's useful, for now. I have no illusions that if and when putin slips up there's plenty of people who will try for the big chair. Some will have a better chance than others.

As such you can probably say no one is really totally loyal to putin, such is the way of dictatorships.

so you illustrated the fact that Putin dying doesn't really solve much as it is.

Something should really be done about Russia before someone even worse takes the throne.

[Edge-]

Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

Last I read: Yes, absolutely.

Primary concerns were around the practicality of deploying the vehicles - logistics (refueling since Abrams are slurping 2 gallons per mile and a crazy amount even idling), the complexity/training required to learn to operate and maintain, and how the engines are apparently aren't exactly the most robust through adverse environments and can get clogged.

Other factors and shit too (concerns about sending too much, worries about the Russian response etc.), but apparently one of the big military reasons not to send them was the chances they'd simply not be effective given the above. I guess we'll find out in the coming monhts.

[jonnysensible]

I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?

Going along with my earlier analogy, it's the difference between the person being bullied coming to you saying "give me a knife I need to cut this fool" vs you giving them a knife they don't know how to use out of the then announcing it to the bully, so now the bully knows to bring a knife to the next fight.

Russia doesn't have the power to force Ukraine into submission but they still have enough for brutal retaliatory strikes. Did Ukraine say they were ready for that action or did NATO kind of put the knife their hands?

They asked for the tanks.

Its a terrible analogy.

Russia is already doing brutal strikes. Air defensive is active daily.

What choice does Ukraine have but to fight i dont get it?

assuming he hypothetically does rise to the top, do you think the Russian citizens are going to do anything...? No. What they think of him doesn't matter. And it's already common knowledge this guy desires nothing but power.

All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

And you people should be scared of the fact Wagner is not on anyone's leash.

He has a mercenary force that is entirely dependent on the state allowing it. He is at the whim of Putin, the military and the security services. Similar to Kadyrov.

[Kallisto]

assuming he hypothetically does rise to the top, do you think the Russian citizens are going to do anything...? No. What they think of him doesn't matter. And it's already common knowledge this guy desires nothing but power.

All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

And you people should be scared of the fact Wagner is not on anyone's leash.

Wagner is on a very tight leash. I'm going to tell you something that you should know. Wagner even in Russia is a criminal organisation that Putin allows to exist because for now he sees the benefit of it. If he stops thinking as such he can turn around, point at the Russian constitution and goes "Look see here, it explicitly states no private militaries." and the Wagner group will be fucked.

[PACOX]

IIRC, Zelensky has been asking for heavier weaponry including tanks for a good while now, so yes, Ukraine sure did ask.

Gotha, that puts things into perspective

[Iphie]

Of course the Patriot PMC is a-okay! But yeah you are very right there, Prigozhin is on a timetable, and needs to bring in results, but not too much results because then they become too popular and a threat.

[PACOX]

They asked for the tanks.

Its a terrible analogy.

Russia is already doing brutal strikes. Air defensive is active daily.

What choice does Ukraine have but to fight i dont get it?

Youre misunderstanding if you think I'm saying Ukraine should not fight. Might and concern is Ukraine should dictate the fight and not some outside observer. All I really wanted to know is if Ukraine asked for the tanks, got that answer. Good for them.