1. #28141
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    tanks arent a silver bullet but will allow Ukraine to defend themselves from the Russian invasion and are useful for storming Russian defensive positions counter offensives. Escalation is nonsense, what can Russia escalate too when it has already pulled all of its levers?

    Whats the alternative let the bully kill them all without fighting?


    I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?

    Going along with my earlier analogy, it's the difference between the person being bullied coming to you saying "give me a knife I need to cut this fool" vs you giving them a knife they don't know how to use out of the then announcing it to the bully, so now the bully knows to bring a knife to the next fight.

    Russia doesn't have the power to force Ukraine into submission but they still have enough for brutal retaliatory strikes. Did Ukraine say they were ready for that action or did NATO kind of put the knife their hands?

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  2. #28142
    Stood in the Fire Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?
    IIRC, Zelensky has been asking for heavier weaponry including tanks for a good while now, so yes, Ukraine sure did ask.

  3. #28143
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Loyalty is fickle, they are all loyal to their own lives and putin keeps them breathing so he's useful, for now. I have no illusions that if and when putin slips up there's plenty of people who will try for the big chair. Some will have a better chance than others.

    As such you can probably say no one is really totally loyal to putin, such is the way of dictatorships.
    so you illustrated the fact that Putin dying doesn't really solve much as it is.

    Something should really be done about Russia before someone even worse takes the throne.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  4. #28144
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?
    Last I read: Yes, absolutely.

    Primary concerns were around the practicality of deploying the vehicles - logistics (refueling since Abrams are slurping 2 gallons per mile and a crazy amount even idling), the complexity/training required to learn to operate and maintain, and how the engines are apparently aren't exactly the most robust through adverse environments and can get clogged.

    Other factors and shit too (concerns about sending too much, worries about the Russian response etc.), but apparently one of the big military reasons not to send them was the chances they'd simply not be effective given the above. I guess we'll find out in the coming monhts.

  5. #28145
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I guess I mean Ukraine should be allowed to escalate the situation on their own terms. Did they ask for the tanks of was NATO like 'here you tanks now go play'?

    Going along with my earlier analogy, it's the difference between the person being bullied coming to you saying "give me a knife I need to cut this fool" vs you giving them a knife they don't know how to use out of the then announcing it to the bully, so now the bully knows to bring a knife to the next fight.

    Russia doesn't have the power to force Ukraine into submission but they still have enough for brutal retaliatory strikes. Did Ukraine say they were ready for that action or did NATO kind of put the knife their hands?
    They asked for the tanks.

    Its a terrible analogy.

    Russia is already doing brutal strikes. Air defensive is active daily.

    What choice does Ukraine have but to fight i dont get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    assuming he hypothetically does rise to the top, do you think the Russian citizens are going to do anything...? No. What they think of him doesn't matter. And it's already common knowledge this guy desires nothing but power.

    All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

    And you people should be scared of the fact Wagner is not on anyone's leash.
    He has a mercenary force that is entirely dependent on the state allowing it. He is at the whim of Putin, the military and the security services. Similar to Kadyrov.
    Last edited by jonnysensible; 2023-01-27 at 01:35 AM.

  6. #28146
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    assuming he hypothetically does rise to the top, do you think the Russian citizens are going to do anything...? No. What they think of him doesn't matter. And it's already common knowledge this guy desires nothing but power.

    All in all, it's safe to say despite the happy pictures of them together, he's not loyal to Putin.

    And you people should be scared of the fact Wagner is not on anyone's leash.
    Wagner is on a very tight leash. I'm going to tell you something that you should know. Wagner even in Russia is a criminal organisation that Putin allows to exist because for now he sees the benefit of it. If he stops thinking as such he can turn around, point at the Russian constitution and goes "Look see here, it explicitly states no private militaries." and the Wagner group will be fucked.

  7. #28147
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    IIRC, Zelensky has been asking for heavier weaponry including tanks for a good while now, so yes, Ukraine sure did ask.
    Gotha, that puts things into perspective

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  8. #28148
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Of course the Patriot PMC is a-okay! But yeah you are very right there, Prigozhin is on a timetable, and needs to bring in results, but not too much results because then they become too popular and a threat.

  9. #28149
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    They asked for the tanks.

    Its a terrible analogy.

    Russia is already doing brutal strikes. Air defensive is active daily.

    What choice does Ukraine have but to fight i dont get it?
    Youre misunderstanding if you think I'm saying Ukraine should not fight. Might and concern is Ukraine should dictate the fight and not some outside observer. All I really wanted to know is if Ukraine asked for the tanks, got that answer. Good for them.

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  10. #28150
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Using prohibited weapon is the exact sort of thing that could get NATO directly involved to end the conflict. That is the very last thing Russia wants because it would mean they forces in Ukraine get bombed into the stone age in short order.
    Might even get the UN to step in too!

  11. #28151
    if by prohibited weapons you mean chemical, NATO won't step in for that. See Syria.

    NATO only steps in if Russia invades Western soil, attacks its affiliates, or nukes Ukraine. Anything else, it won't happen.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  12. #28152
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    Might even get the UN to step in too!
    The UN is a bit hamstrung by China and russia being permanent members of the security council, though I'm pretty sure that will be solved really quickly in russia's case if that shit would go down.

  13. #28153
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    The UN is a bit hamstrung by China and russia being permanent members of the security council, though I'm pretty sure that will be solved really quickly in russia's case if that shit would go down.
    The US could just start its own 'peacekeeping operation' and invite some friends along. Not as likely to happen, but we've done shittier things for flimsier pretenses.

  14. #28154
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    The US could just start its own 'peacekeeping operation' and invite some friends along.
    the moment the US does that, it's all over for them.

    Just stop factoring the US, NATO, or UN into this conflict directly. They will never get into it. That's solely where Russia's threats hold weight; the threat of "DON'T FUCKING CROSS THIS LINE"
    Last edited by YUPPIE; 2023-01-27 at 04:00 AM.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  15. #28155
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    the moment the US does that, it's all over for them.

    Just stop factoring the US, NATO, or UN into this conflict directly. They will never get into it. That's solely where Russia's threats hold weight; the threat of "DON'T FUCKING CROSS THIS LINE"
    hence the 'not as likely to happen' caveat you cut out of my quote.

    I don't think American Boots in UA/RU is impossible, there's a bunch of stupid shit Putin and his circle of loons could pull to directly drag us into their mess, but I also don't think it's likely while Ukraine continues to make strides towards repelling Russia with their own servicemen (minus any foreign volunteers).

    But I also don't think we give a shit about their threats if only because Russia keeps setting up imaginary red lines and not doing anything when they keep getting crossed. We've sent Tanks, artillery, and missile defense systems that Russia's both claimed are horrendous red lines but also pitiful things that they will destroy (They have yet to destroy a single US donated piece of equipment and I can see that trend continuing). Ukraine's struck Russian territory multiple times, hell they shucked a drone all the way to their strategic bomber airfield in Engels and did fucking nothing but make excuses that it was an accident (same shit they said with the Moskava and the Crimean Bridge) and did fuckall except try and kill more civilians.

    All bark and no bite has shown considerable weakness on their part, and it makes their peers doubt they even have the -means- to retaliate. But no one wants to gamble with nuclear weapons, even if we doubt their validity. So We're content with Boiling Putin's frog.

  16. #28156
    the one ultimate non-imaginary red line, the one absolute truth, is US soldiers' feet on the ground in Ukraine. That is what hasn't been crossed for good reason. That is the line the US cares for. Everything else is whatever/bluster.

    And also, more than NATO and the US, I would expect absolutely nothing out of the UN.
    Last edited by YUPPIE; 2023-01-27 at 04:27 AM.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  17. #28157
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    There won't be US boots on the ground in Ukraine. But currently, there are a lot of US boots all over the eastern NATO borders, as well as of other NATO members.

  18. #28158
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Can I ask if Ukraine needed the tanks without looking like I'm siding with Russia or anything?

    Its a question NATO members asked, struggled with, and obviously ended up saying yes to but I feel like it is necessary that the move has moved the war up a level.

    * Ukraine deserves to defend itself and Russia deserves to get it ass kicked.


    But was the situation bad enough to warrant tanks? I would say yes if I was in Ukraine because I would want all tools available to defend my phone. Is it right for NATO to push weapons they know will escalate the war and get more Ukrainians killed if Ukraine was handling business without the tanks. I also stopped following the war closely so idk.


    Its like you see a person being bullied so you teach them how to fight. The person is able to defend themselves but now has to fight to keep from getting bullied. You give the person a knife so now they dont have to fight as hard knowing their bully will likely get a knife as well and was waiting for an excuse to use said knife. The kid you helped will now forever face unique consequences whether the bully stops or not, things like people coming at them to steal their knife or having to live with the life long consequences of being stabbed if/when they get stabbed.


    I'm leaning on the side of "fuck it, give them more tanks" but I'm saying that as someone an world away that doesn't have to deal with the consequences of an escalated war and the fallout.
    Well the proper reaction to seeing a person being bullied is laying the bully the fuck out, and not pussying around with debating whether or not you should give that person being bullied the knife or not.

    As long as the West can't find the balls to carpet bomb the ruskies out from Ukraine, the least we can do is give them the best equipment we have.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 2023-01-27 at 05:16 AM.

  19. #28159
    Zelenksy today has made a statement, citing the weapons and equipment that Ukraine receives is not enough as it is. They need more. He mentions today there was another missile strike that took the lives of many, likely the Shahed drone attack, and sends his condolences.



    I just wanted to bring the header image here directly because he looks so intimidating in this shot.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  20. #28160
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    I just wanted to bring the header image here directly because he looks so intimidating in this shot.
    ngl he looks like a dad who is Very Upset
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

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