Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Surfd]

Yeah, I probably should have clarified that when I said "The American Government" isn't interested in dealing with those problems, I really meant "One Specific Half of the American Government, which starts with an R", but I figure that's just generally understood.

[Iphie]

Chinese proposal:


⚡️China has published its plan to resolve the war in Ukraine

It consists of 12 items:
▪️respect for the sovereignty of all countries, observance of international law and the UN Charter;
▪️Rejection of the Cold War mentality and adherence to the principle that "the security of one country should not be ensured at the expense of others";
▪️cessation of hostilities, avoidance of escalation;
▪️resumption of peace talks as "the only viable solution";
▪️resolution of the humanitarian crisis;
▪️protection of civilians and prisoners of war;
▪️Ensuring the safety of nuclear power plants;
▪️countering the threat of the use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons;
▪️promotion of grain export within the framework of the Black Sea Grain Initiative;
▪️the termination of unilateral sanctions, which "do not solve current problems, but create new ones";
▪️supporting the stability of production chains and supply chains, refusing to use the world economy for political purposes;
▪️Contribute to post-conflict reconstruction.

China ruled out achieving peace in Ukraine through the supply of weapons to us.

Now, at face value there are some decent ideas here, and I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but I'm certainly careful when it comes to China.

https://www.china-briefing.com/news/...united-states/

[zorkuus]

▪️the termination of unilateral sanctions, which "do not solve current problems, but create new ones";

Bit fat NO. ruZZia will be punished for its actions for years or decades to come. We will not allow these warcriminals to just get away with this.

[Iphie]

Bit fat NO. ruZZia will be punished for its actions for years or decades to come. We will not allow these warcriminals to just get away with this.

In due time sanctions will be lifted, but at present nope. Some of the points are obviously more reasonable than others. I wouldn't say the plan is total shit though. (but still careful with Chinese motivations.)

[zorkuus]

In due time sanctions will be lifted, but at present nope. Some of the points are obviously more reasonable than others. I wouldn't say the plan is total shit though. (but still careful with Chinese motivations.)

It is kinda shit though. It puts no responsibility and fault on ruZZia. They would just get to walk away without consequences (and likely with the territory they have already stolen).

But anyway... any deal with ruZZkies is pointless. They will cease to honor it when they see fit.

[Shadowferal]

I'm leery of another "Treaty of Versailles."

[Nymrohd]

Chinese proposal:


⚡️China has published its plan to resolve the war in Ukraine

It consists of 12 items:
▪️respect for the sovereignty of all countries, observance of international law and the UN Charter;
▪️Rejection of the Cold War mentality and adherence to the principle that "the security of one country should not be ensured at the expense of others";
▪️cessation of hostilities, avoidance of escalation;
▪️resumption of peace talks as "the only viable solution";
▪️resolution of the humanitarian crisis;
▪️protection of civilians and prisoners of war;
▪️Ensuring the safety of nuclear power plants;
▪️countering the threat of the use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons;
▪️promotion of grain export within the framework of the Black Sea Grain Initiative;
▪️the termination of unilateral sanctions, which "do not solve current problems, but create new ones";
▪️supporting the stability of production chains and supply chains, refusing to use the world economy for political purposes;
▪️Contribute to post-conflict reconstruction.

China ruled out achieving peace in Ukraine through the supply of weapons to us.

Now, at face value there are some decent ideas here, and I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but I'm certainly careful when it comes to China.

https://www.china-briefing.com/news/...united-states/

This very much is nothing. There is no actual proposal on what should happen and on whether Russia should withdraw (after all, it has declared new borders now). It is posturing for the global south to present themselves as peaceful vs the "warmongering" West.

[zorkuus]

I'm leery of another "Treaty of Versailles."

This wouldn't be the same thing at all. Treaty of Versailles atleast put blame and consequences on someone.

[Iphie]

This very much is nothing. There is no actual proposal on what should happen and on whether Russia should withdraw (after all, it has declared new borders now). It is posturing for the global south to present themselves as peaceful vs the "warmongering" West.

New borders that China doesn't recognise, it is implicit in this that russia has to fuck off from Ukrainian territory. (first point addresses this.)

I'm leery of another "Treaty of Versailles."

I could not agree more, but this is not that as there is no blame assigned.

[Gabriel]

I'm leery of another "Treaty of Versailles."

Tough tiddies.

[Nymrohd]

New borders that China doesn't recognise, it is implicit in this that russia has to fuck off from Ukrainian territory. (first point addresses this.)

Respect means nothing. There is a hierarchy of words used in diplomatic and legal language and respect is very much down the ladder from things like endorse or resolve.

[zorkuus]

New borders that China doesn't recognise, it is implicit in this that russia has to fuck off from Ukrainian territory. (first point addresses this.)

They would recognise them in a heartbeat if it was ruZZia's terms for peace. That is why their proposal is so open and vague.

[Corvus]

Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.

The US has announced a new $2 billion package with more ammo, drones and HIMARS. And there are new sanction packages from the US and the UK.

Included for the first time is the switchblade 600, which is the tank killer version.

[Azadina]

My 5 step proposal for peace:

1.RuZZia surrenders.
2. Every ruZZki terrorist having taken part in Ukraine is to be terminated by RuZZia themselves, as part of the surrender.
3. RuZZia is to pay reparations, at set cost of 10 million per person injured or killed. 100% of the reconstruction cost, AND the cost of all incurred economic damage caused by the war to all parties, with interest.
4. RuZZia is to disarm immediately following the step 2, and to have no military or any band of thugs ever again.
5 Russia is allowed to exist going further as long as it abides by the agreements.

[zorkuus]

Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.

This proposal gives lots of things to ruZZia. What would Ukraine get from it? A vaguely defined peace where Ukraine loses territory and ruZZia doesn't suffer any consequences for its invasion and warcrimes. A "peace" that can be broken at any moment ruZZia sees fit.

It's almost like it was written by ruZZkies.

[Gorsameth]

Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.

The US has announced a new $2 billion package with more ammo, drones and HIMARS. And there are new sanction packages from the US and the UK.

Included for the first time is the switchblade 600, which is the tank killer version.

I don't agree that this is a useless deal but where does the idea of Russia holding Ukrainian land comes from? China doesn't even recognise Crimea as being Russian. When they say respect borders that means Russia out of Ukraine, not Russia getting Ukrainian land.

[zorkuus]

I don't agree that this is a useless deal but where does the idea of Russia holding Ukrainian land comes from? China doesn't even recognise Crimea as being Russian. When they say respect borders that means Russia out of Ukraine, not Russia getting Ukrainian land.

Where does it say they have to give stolen land back? Read it again carefully and you may notice how fucking vague and open to interpretation it is.

[Gorsameth]

This proposal gives lots of things to ruZZia. What would Ukraine get from it? A vaguely defined peace where Ukraine loses territory and ruZZia doesn't suffer any consequences for its invasion and warcrimes. A "peace" that can be broken at any moment ruZZia sees fit.

It's almost like it was written by ruZZkies.

It makes sense for China, not because 'russia gets everything' but because China wants economic stability. No war, no sanctions and life going back to normal.

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Where does it say they have to give stolen land back? Read it again carefully and you may notice how fucking vague and open to interpretation it is.

Its literally point 1, come on try harder.

[zorkuus]

Its literally point 1, come on try harder.

Show it to me. Quote the part where it says what has already seen stolen has to be given back. That "exact" wording.

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It makes sense for China, not because 'russia gets everything' but because China wants economic stability. No war, no sanctions and life going back to normal.

No normal. Not for ruZZia. Fuck them. Play the game, suffer the consequences.

[Gorsameth]

Show it to me. Quote the part where it says what has already seen stolen has to be given back. That "exact" wording.

- - - Updated - - -


No normal. Not for ruZZia. Fuck them. Play the game, suffer the consequences.

I see you have no interest in actually talking about what China cares about and just want to shout "evil evil".
Have fun.

But since you asked.

respect for the sovereignty of all countries

That's borders. really not hard to understand, but for you seems to be.