1. #29261
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm leery of another "Treaty of Versailles."
    Tough tiddies.

  2. #29262
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    New borders that China doesn't recognise, it is implicit in this that russia has to fuck off from Ukrainian territory. (first point addresses this.)
    Respect means nothing. There is a hierarchy of words used in diplomatic and legal language and respect is very much down the ladder from things like endorse or resolve.

  3. #29263
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    New borders that China doesn't recognise, it is implicit in this that russia has to fuck off from Ukrainian territory. (first point addresses this.)
    They would recognise them in a heartbeat if it was ruZZia's terms for peace. That is why their proposal is so open and vague.

  4. #29264
    Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.

    The US has announced a new $2 billion package with more ammo, drones and HIMARS. And there are new sanction packages from the US and the UK.

    Included for the first time is the switchblade 600, which is the tank killer version.
    Last edited by Corvus; 2023-02-24 at 11:06 AM.

  5. #29265
    My 5 step proposal for peace:

    1.RuZZia surrenders.
    2. Every ruZZki terrorist having taken part in Ukraine is to be terminated by RuZZia themselves, as part of the surrender.
    3. RuZZia is to pay reparations, at set cost of 10 million per person injured or killed. 100% of the reconstruction cost, AND the cost of all incurred economic damage caused by the war to all parties, with interest.
    4. RuZZia is to disarm immediately following the step 2, and to have no military or any band of thugs ever again.
    5 Russia is allowed to exist going further as long as it abides by the agreements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  6. #29266
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.
    This proposal gives lots of things to ruZZia. What would Ukraine get from it? A vaguely defined peace where Ukraine loses territory and ruZZia doesn't suffer any consequences for its invasion and warcrimes. A "peace" that can be broken at any moment ruZZia sees fit.

    It's almost like it was written by ruZZkies.

  7. #29267
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Yeah, china's proposal is bollocks. A ceasefire that leaves russia holding Ukrainian land with no mention of withdrawal, a lifting of sanctions, no NATO membership for Ukraine, and no actual concrete security for Ukraine, working on russia's concerns etc. The only reason for it is to stymie Ukraine's plans and give russia a breather to reequip and dig in.

    The US has announced a new $2 billion package with more ammo, drones and HIMARS. And there are new sanction packages from the US and the UK.

    Included for the first time is the switchblade 600, which is the tank killer version.
    I don't agree that this is a useless deal but where does the idea of Russia holding Ukrainian land comes from? China doesn't even recognise Crimea as being Russian. When they say respect borders that means Russia out of Ukraine, not Russia getting Ukrainian land.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #29268
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I don't agree that this is a useless deal but where does the idea of Russia holding Ukrainian land comes from? China doesn't even recognise Crimea as being Russian. When they say respect borders that means Russia out of Ukraine, not Russia getting Ukrainian land.
    Where does it say they have to give stolen land back? Read it again carefully and you may notice how fucking vague and open to interpretation it is.

  9. #29269
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    This proposal gives lots of things to ruZZia. What would Ukraine get from it? A vaguely defined peace where Ukraine loses territory and ruZZia doesn't suffer any consequences for its invasion and warcrimes. A "peace" that can be broken at any moment ruZZia sees fit.

    It's almost like it was written by ruZZkies.
    It makes sense for China, not because 'russia gets everything' but because China wants economic stability. No war, no sanctions and life going back to normal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Where does it say they have to give stolen land back? Read it again carefully and you may notice how fucking vague and open to interpretation it is.
    Its literally point 1, come on try harder.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #29270
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Its literally point 1, come on try harder.
    Show it to me. Quote the part where it says what has already seen stolen has to be given back. That "exact" wording.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    It makes sense for China, not because 'russia gets everything' but because China wants economic stability. No war, no sanctions and life going back to normal.
    No normal. Not for ruZZia. Fuck them. Play the game, suffer the consequences.

  11. #29271
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Show it to me. Quote the part where it says what has already seen stolen has to be given back. That "exact" wording.

    - - - Updated - - -


    No normal. Not for ruZZia. Fuck them. Play the game, suffer the consequences.
    I see you have no interest in actually talking about what China cares about and just want to shout "evil evil".
    Have fun.

    But since you asked.
    respect for the sovereignty of all countries
    That's borders. really not hard to understand, but for you seems to be.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #29272
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I see you have no interest in actually talking about what China cares about
    I don't. It's not a participant in this war.

    But since you asked.
    That's borders. really not hard to understand, but for you seems to be.
    ruZZia now considers the stolen land its own. Under that vagueness Ukraine should respect it.

  13. #29273
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    That's borders. really not hard to understand, but for you seems to be.
    I'd want to be VERY certain about what China means by that. And what precedent it might set. Because China might very well be thinking "our sovereignty involves us owning Taiwan, regardless of what anyone else thinks about that".

    The last thing we want out of this is any agreement or precedent that gives China even the slightest sliver of room to start fucking around in that space.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  14. #29274
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I'd want to be VERY certain about what China means by that. And what precedent it might set. Because China might very well be thinking "our sovereignty involves us owning Taiwan, regardless of what anyone else thinks about that".

    The last thing we want out of this is any agreement or precedent that gives China even the slightest sliver of room to start fucking around in that space.
    If anything it would be the opposite since it would acknowledge that Russia doesn't get to grab Ukraine, despite considering it to be part of Russia.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #29275
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I'd want to be VERY certain about what China means by that. And what precedent it might set. Because China might very well be thinking "our sovereignty involves us owning Taiwan, regardless of what anyone else thinks about that".

    The last thing we want out of this is any agreement or precedent that gives China even the slightest sliver of room to start fucking around in that space.
    That is, slightly, different, both mainland China and Taiwan do consider themselves one country, just not under the same government. (not saying that I disagree with you but that's really a hornet's nest.)

    China's stance has, always, been that Crimea is Ukrainian, as well as the current temporary occupied territories of Ukraine. In that respect they are quite clear: russia is illegally occupying sovereign territory of Ukraine.

  16. #29276
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    That is, slightly, different, both mainland China and Taiwan do consider themselves one country, just not under the same government. (not saying that I disagree with you but that's really a hornet's nest.)

    China's stance has, always, been that Crimea is Ukrainian, as well as the current temporary occupied territories of Ukraine. In that respect they are quite clear: russia is illegally occupying sovereign territory of Ukraine.
    It's China. You can count on it that their stance would change the moment ruZZia says " our terms for peace is we can keep what we already have, da?".

  17. #29277
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    Hm.... i got some info, but not much as i heared of soldiers talking while being at mcdoland today. They are going to Ukraine as some type of support to protect civilians as peacekeepers. Maybe as blue helmet guys?

    It would in theory make a do not attack zones (like that nuclear plant) for russan soldiers.
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  18. #29278
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    It's China. You can count on it that their stance would change the moment ruZZia says " our terms for peace is we can keep what we already have, da?".
    Not with this, it's one of the few things they've always been consistent about, I mean in 8 years they could've said, "kk, Crimea is russian now", but they never did. It also would open the door for other countries or for Taiwan if they said otherwise. But, as I have mentioned several times now, skepticism regarding China is not unmerited even if they are sincere....maybe.

    There are good points in this plan, and I see it as a start, part of the plan is negotiations and I think that is definitely something that needs to start again. Obviously russia needs to fuck off from Ukrainian territory but that doesn't mean that they cannot talk or take other steps to achieve that goal which doesn't involve blowing each other up. In they end though it's not up to us, it is up to the Ukrainians to decide what they think of the plan. (though I suppose they'll have the same response as the majority here.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Hm.... i got some info, but not much as i heared of soldiers talking while being at mcdoland today. They are going to Ukraine as some type of support to protect civilians as peacekeepers. Maybe as blue helmet guys?

    It would in theory make a do not attack zones (like that nuclear plant) for russan soldiers.
    Where are you from? If you're from any NATO country I sincerely doubt that will happen. (also, soldiers talking about that in McDonald's? Best not tell their CO about that...)
    Last edited by Iphie; 2023-02-24 at 01:43 PM.

  19. #29279
    Poland says they have delivered the first Leopard 2s to Ukraine. Look forward to russia claiming to have to destroyed 7 of the 4 of them next week.

    They are also in the process of delivering a large number of upgraded t72s they don't need anymore now they are switching to Abrams and the South Korean Black Panther.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And while Ukraine gets Leopard 2s, russia appears to be breaking out btr50s, which finished production in 1970.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1...810497024?s=20

  20. #29280
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Not with this, it's one of the few things they've always been consistent about, I mean in 8 years they could've said, "kk, Crimea is russian now", but they never did. It also would open the door for other countries or for Taiwan if they said otherwise. But, as I have mentioned several times now, skepticism regarding China is not unmerited even if they are sincere....maybe.

    There are good points in this plan, and I see it as a start, part of the plan is negotiations and I think that is definitely something that needs to start again. Obviously russia needs to fuck off from Ukrainian territory but that doesn't mean that they cannot talk or take other steps to achieve that goal which doesn't involve blowing each other up. In they end though it's not up to us, it is up to the Ukrainians to decide what they think of the plan. (though I suppose they'll have the same response as the majority here.)



    Where are you from? If you're from any NATO country I sincerely doubt that will happen. (also, soldiers talking about that in McDonald's? Best not tell their CO about that...)
    I cant say in that case . But yeah, its nato country.
    Oh and you would be suprised how much people blaber abauth any secrets in those resturants.

    Well if something happens, you heared it from me 1.st .....

    Oh and blue helmets are generaly not counted as a hostile force, so even if they send them it cant cause any political problems as they are special forces in its own kind:
    https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/military

    They will probaly be in areas away from warzone tho, to help people (and also reduce the strain on ukraine army).
    Don't sweat the details!!!

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