Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Bakis]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...sy-2023-02-24/

Activists protesting against Russia's invasion of Ukraine parked a destroyed, rusty tank directly in front of the Russian embassy in Berlin on Friday, bringing a piece of the battlefield to the centre of the German capital.

"The broken tank signifies downfall. Ukraine is going to be Putin's Stalingrad," said Wieland Giebel, curator of the Berlin Story Bunker museum, referring to Germany's defeat in a major battle in World War Two.
The tank, a Russian T-72 B1, was destroyed on March 31, 2022, close to the village of Dmytrivka near Kyiv, by an anti-tank mine, according to organiser Giebel and colleague Enno Lenze.

Suck on that. Enjoy going to work at that embassy


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Sweden will join other countries by sending Leopard tanks.

[Corvus]

Lets not forget that China's definition of 'internationally recognised borders' is not the same as everyone else's. They illegally occupy lands and have claims on land belonging to pretty much all of their neighbours. No different to russia really.

[Elder Millennial]

The only ceasefire Ukraine should agree to is one that allows Russia an rapid but organized withdrawl.

[Iphie]

Welp, whatever we think of China's peace plan is irrelevant, Ukraine sees some merit in the plan.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ith-sick-putin

https://www.reuters.com/world/china-...ol-2023-02-24/

Mind they are cautious, but not completely dismissive.

[Corvus]

It is probably that they know China is the key to getting russia out of Ukraine and that China even talking about it now is a sign it is affecting china enough to start talking about it.

[Logwyn]

Welp, whatever we think of China's peace plan is irrelevant, Ukraine sees some merit in the plan.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ith-sick-putin

https://www.reuters.com/world/china-...ol-2023-02-24/

Mind they are cautious, but not completely dismissive.

Zelenskiy kinda has to be willing to entertain peace plans. If not he's just a warmonger like Putin. Now he does not have to agree to anything.

[Gabriel]

The only ceasefire Ukraine should agree to is one that allows Russia an rapid but organized withdrawl.

Nobody should agree to a ceasefire with russia because russia lies. They are free to withdraw under fire if they really want to do it.

[Kaleredar]

Zelenskiy kinda has to be willing to entertain peace plans. If not he's just a warmonger like Putin. Now he does not have to agree to anything.

I'm pretty sure Zelensky's peace plan is "Russia fucks off back to Russia." Russia is not owed a single centimeter of Ukrainian soil, no matter how many Russians died on it or how many warcrimes Russia committed to get there. Zelenskiy is not a warmonger for not accepting anything less than total Russian retreat.

Russia seems to have no interest in doing that, and they need no international cajoling to do so. They could literally affect that change tomorrow, all on their own.

[Iphie]

I'm pretty sure Zelensky's peace plan is "Russia fucks off back to Russia." Russia is not owed a single centimeter of Ukrainian soil, no matter how many Russians died on it or how many warcrimes Russia committed to get there. Zelenskiy is not a warmonger for not accepting anything less than total Russian retreat.

Russia seems to have no interest in doing that, and they need no international cajoling to do so. They could literally affect that change tomorrow, all on their own.

Yeah, but if he doesn't budge at all no matter how reasonable a plan is, and I'm not saying this one is the holy grail, public opinion will turn against him.

We may be able to see it that way, but realities on the battlefield and the part of the population which is less inclined to support Ukraine might dictate another direction.

[Gorsameth]

Lets not forget that China's definition of 'internationally recognised borders' is not the same as everyone else's. They illegally occupy lands and have claims on land belonging to pretty much all of their neighbours. No different to russia really.

...Again...China does not even recognise the Crimean occupation. Their internationally recognised borders of Ukraine are the same as ours.

[Huehuecoyotl]

...Again...China does not even recognise the Crimean occupation. Their internationally recognised borders of Ukraine are the same as ours.

And again, China are not going to broker a peace treaty that in any way undermines their "justified" belief that Taiwan is part of their country. They might be playing the peacemaker in this scenario, but their motives cannot be trusted.

Russia is doing to Ukraine precisely what China wants to do with Taiwan. Bring it back to the fold by whatever means necessary.

[Azadina]

Yeah, but if he doesn't budge at all no matter how reasonable a plan is, and I'm not saying this one is the holy grail, public opinion will turn against him.

We may be able to see it that way, but realities on the battlefield and the part of the population which is less inclined to support Ukraine might dictate another direction.

Ok, define a "reasonable plan" outside of RuZZkies fucking off?

[Santti]

And again, China are not going to broker a peace treaty that in any way undermines their "justified" belief that Taiwan is part of their country. They might be playing the peacemaker in this scenario, but their motives cannot be trusted.

Russia is doing to Ukraine precisely what China wants to do with Taiwan. Bring it back to the fold by whatever means necessary.

You are right.

However, while China is definitely not going to broker any kind of peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine, I just wonder what kind of pressure China is putting on Russia (if any) for not recognizing the borders? There has been border disputes between China and Russia in the past. I wouldn't put it past China to start "renegotiating" the established borders with Russia, and using Ukraine war as some kind of excuse for it.

I suppose the excuses for China to start messing with Russia would be somewhat flimsy, but it's still probably better than what Russia got with Ukraine.

[Iphie]

Ok, define a "reasonable plan" outside of RuZZkies fucking off?

A reasonable plan involves more than just russians fucking off, it also entails repatriation of children, bodies etc. That's why I say this is a start, not an end all and be all. Of course, reparations, tribunals etc. would be very nice as well but most likely impossible.

[Twdft]

A reasonable plan involves more than just russians fucking off, it also entails repatriation of children, bodies etc. That's why I say this is a start, not an end all and be all. Of course, reparations, tribunals etc. would be very nice as well but most likely impossible.

Before any reasonable plan can be considered at all, ruSSia must acknowledge that Ukraine will be its own sovereign nation after this shitshow is done. As long as they don't do that, wtf is there to talk about in the first place?

[Lynarii]

A reasonable plan involves more than just russians fucking off, it also entails repatriation of children, bodies etc. That's why I say this is a start, not an end all and be all. Of course, reparations, tribunals etc. would be very nice as well but most likely impossible.

We can't even start on things like repatriation or the like until we get past the barrier of 'russians fucking off' though. If they were willing to do that, then yeah, there would be a LOT to negotiate and maybe China could help with that. The problem is simply that they haven't given us any reason to believe that they are any closer to a solution on the whole disputed territory point than anyone else is.

I can't imagine anything that they could offer Ukraine that would get them to accept a russian takeover. And I can't think of anything they could offer russia that would get them to leave peacefully. It's possible that they have levers that the rest of the world is unaware of, and it costs Zelenski nothing to hear them out and see if they do, but the only way that I actually see this achieving anything is if putin is looking for a way out and has asked China to provide him one. Which just doesn't line up with russia's actions.

[Yunru]

Roflmao. Now that is epic trolling with missile system alert.

[Azadina]

A reasonable plan involves more than just russians fucking off, it also entails repatriation of children, bodies etc. That's why I say this is a start, not an end all and be all. Of course, reparations, tribunals etc. would be very nice as well but most likely impossible.

The context of Kaleredars comment and your reply to it, seemed to heavily imply, that zelensky ought to consider "reasonable" plans, in order to not be seen as warmonger. Reasonable plan that is LESS than RuZZia fucking off, and Ukraine retaining it's sovereignty.

So, allow me to repeat the same question with renewed phrasing: Can you define a "reasonable plan", that zelensky ought to consider in order to not be seen as warmonger. One that is LESS than RuZZia fucking off Ukraining land?

[Iphie]

I've never implied that, but ok.

As far as I'm concerned russia needs to get within it's own borders and vacate all illegally occupied Ukrainian territory. China's plan, literally, involves that. Not in the direct words people would like but certainly in the diplomatic words. Now, if you want to read that as: this deal is LESS than russia fucks off then that is on you.

A reasonable deal, in my opinion starts with stopping with shooting at each other and the withdrawal of russian forces from anything Ukrainian. So far we probably agree. What we do not agree on in the timeline, you want this to happen before negotiations start I say start those negotiations first because I don't see russia withdrawing first. The flipside is that I also don't see Ukraine starting with negotiations before russia is expelled and these two positions are not compatible. (Someone is going to need to make the first step and I want it to be russia but I just don't see that happening.)

This is why I say that a "reasonable" plan needs to be considered, on both sides, Zelensky is not a warmonger, putin is, but by declining to look at ANY form of plan or any deal public opinion CAN turn, simply put if we agree for the sake of argument that russia withdraws tomorrow and Zelensky says "no, that is not good enough it needs to happen today", I can imagine that people will say: "dude, at least let them get their logistics in order to actually withdraw". 'We do want them to talk somehow in order to bring a definitive end to this conflict. Yeah, yeah, I know, russian promises aren't worth the ink they used to write the signatures with, but what else can we do? just fortify the entire border between russia/belarus and Ukraine? This is not Finland with 6 decent border crossings and the maginot line has shown how easy it is to bypass static defenses anyway.

Finally, I won't cry (too much) if russia breaks apart but that is not the primary goal here.

[Azadina]

I've never implied that, but ok.

As far as I'm concerned russia needs to get within it's own borders and vacate all illegally occupied Ukrainian territory. China's plan, literally, involves that. Not in the direct words people would like but certainly in the diplomatic words. Now, if you want to read that as: this deal is LESS than russia fucks off then that is on you.

A reasonable deal, in my opinion starts with stopping with shooting at each other and the withdrawal of russian forces from anything Ukrainian. So far we probably agree. What we do not agree on in the timeline, you want this to happen before negotiations start I say start those negotiations first because I don't see russia withdrawing first. The flipside is that I also don't see Ukraine starting with negotiations before russia is expelled and these two positions are not compatible. (Someone is going to need to make the first step and I want it to be russia but I just don't see that happening.)

This is why I say that a "reasonable" plan needs to be considered, on both sides, Zelensky is not a warmonger, putin is, but by declining to look at ANY form of plan or any deal public opinion CAN turn, simply put if we agree for the sake of argument that russia withdraws tomorrow and Zelensky says "no, that is not good enough it needs to happen today", I can imagine that people will say: "dude, at least let them get their logistics in order to actually withdraw". 'We do want them to talk somehow in order to bring a definitive end to this conflict. Yeah, yeah, I know, russian promises aren't worth the ink they used to write the signatures with, but what else can we do? just fortify the entire border between russia/belarus and Ukraine? This is not Finland with 6 decent border crossings and the maginot line has shown how easy it is to bypass static defenses anyway.

Finally, I won't cry (too much) if russia breaks apart but that is not the primary goal here.

1. Yep. I'm pretty sure that's Zelenskys plan aswell. So what else is he supposed to consider that doesn't involve that, because RuZZia will not agree. They could any time they wanted to.

2. They are not doing it first, nor are they doing it voluntarily last. So what you're asking is for Ukrainian leadership to waste time on that, rather than focus on actually winning the war by forcing RuZZkies out. This benefits one side only.

3. Probably because in RuZZki that'd be "let us loot, murder, rape and pillage today without resistance and we totes promise to leave tomorrow". Of course he should say "we'll keep blasting you until you're gone".