Russian invasion of Ukraine

[jonnysensible]

Skill can only take you so far in tanks these old - they were designed during ww2 to counter Tigers. The T54s began to be made in 1946. They have day-time only optic sights, poor mobility and poor armour compared to modern tanks - even the T62 is vastly superior to it. And the fuel tank is stored inside the crew compartment for added fun.

On top of that it will strain russian logistics even more given it used yet another ammo type and has a different engine to all their other tanks. Oh, and it is the only tank in the russian service that doesn't have an autoloader. It requires a 4 man crew and a manual loader, which russians have not had any experience with for a long time.

A couple of looks at it and the problems it will have. There is very little short of small arms that won't pop it.

Probably they'll dig them in to use as pillboxes.

the best tank is one that can kill all armoured threats with a single shot. Which is all of them.

the better crew with better C4ISR and a worse tank will kill a worse crew with a better tank.

In ukraine most tank engagements ive seen are below 1km and i have only seen a handful of tank vs tank engagements.

those tanks are fine, but if you use them like idiots and you crew sucks (which seems to be a thing with russians) you are in trouble, better to have them than not.

[Iphie]

Just realised, those T-55 and T-54 tank designs are older than putin himself. That country is really a joke.

[Zaydin]

Just realised, those T-55 and T-54 tank designs are older than putin himself. That country is really a joke.

And they will be extremely vulnerable to any remotely modern AT weapons. Hell, they will be vulnerable to AT weapons that are 30-40 years old.

[Iphie]

And they will be extremely vulnerable to any remotely modern AT weapons. Hell, they will be vulnerable to AT weapons that are 30-40 years old.

Yeah, those DU shots aren't even going to be needed. (I'm kinda iffy on those anyway.)

[Logwyn]

Skill can only take you so far in tanks these old - they were designed during ww2 to counter Tigers.

All you had to do to counter a Tiger column was to fall back half a mile to a mile. The Tigers would then run out of fuel or breakdown. German logistics couldn't keep them up and running.. Mustangs were great at killing those sitting ducks too!

[YUPPIE]

It's the Ukranians saying this so take it with a grain of salt (for morale reasons), but the Russians are apparently very worn out in Bahkmut despite reports earlier this month on their breakthroughs. The Ukrainians say a "big" counterattack is coming in response.

[Gorsameth]

It's the Ukranians saying this so take it with a grain of salt (for morale reasons), but the Russians are apparently very worn out in Bahkmut despite reports earlier this month on their breakthroughs. The Ukrainians say a "big" counterattack is coming in response.

worn out and having made a (tiny) breakthrough are not mutually exclusive in any way. Considering the severity of the fighting both sides there not being very worn out would be highly unlikely.

[jonnysensible]

It's the Ukranians saying this so take it with a grain of salt (for morale reasons), but the Russians are apparently very worn out in Bahkmut despite reports earlier this month on their breakthroughs. The Ukrainians say a "big" counterattack is coming in response.

some brutal videos coming out of bahkmut seen multiple russians commiting suicide as drones drop grenades on them

[YUPPIE]

worn out and having made a (tiny) breakthrough are not mutually exclusive in any way. Considering the severity of the fighting both sides there not being very worn out would be highly unlikely.

What happens if the Russians lose Bahkmut, though? Remember that although he's evil as fuck, the Wagner leader believably explained the strategic importance of maintaining Bahkmut to the Russians - and how fucked they are if they can't.

[Wilian]

Just realised, those T-55 and T-54 tank designs are older than putin himself. That country is really a joke.

Those are literal WW2 tanks, as in designed during WW2.

[Iphie]

What happens if the Russians lose Bahkmut, though? Remember that although he's evil as fuck, the Wagner leader believably explained the strategic importance of maintaining Bahkmut to the Russians - and how fucked they are if they can't.

1. To lose something you must first have it, this is not the case.
2. Prig has already said if shit goes tits up he'll just leave if he doesn't get support.
3. there are rumours prig is going to focus on Africa in any case due to feeling betrayed.
4. the MoD forces are apparently moving to the Kreminna-Lyman direction.

5. Absolutely unconfirmed and blatantly insane: prig apparently wrote a letter to the US government offering to go focus on something else...for the right price and support.

[jonnysensible]

What happens if the Russians lose Bahkmut, though? Remember that although he's evil as fuck, the Wagner leader believably explained the strategic importance of maintaining Bahkmut to the Russians - and how fucked they are if they can't.

they move back to their next positions, and have a propaganda loss.

Prig is already being told to fuck off and focus on his africa shenanigans (i.e looting african metals for 2 billion a year?)

[YUPPIE]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

[Gorsameth]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

Bahkmut is utterly unimportant. It has no strategic value and the only reason its in the news is because its where Wagner decided to have their main thrust and they are the only ones that have made any progress at all by throwing waves of meat at the problem.

Outside of PR the cost of losing Bahkmut is the same as long anywhere else along the front line. It risks a breakthrough and who knows how the Russians will be able to recover from that. If they are organised its fine, if not then the entire front could crumble.

[jonnysensible]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

bahkmut for the russians means they can threaten Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. Ukraine staying there means they can inflict heavy attrition to Russian forces and protect Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. It really isn't that important in terms of location, but its become a propaganda war.

The Russians have hyped it up and now they have to take or they do look stupid (which is a really bad way to wage a war) and they would have to take it at some point anyway.

The Ukranians don't really want to lose it for propaganda reasons, they can inflict heavy damage to whatever russia chucks in there and they are sort of saying 'we could go back to our next postions, and then if that goes badly go back to our next positions and eventually go back to kyiv...but why bother with going all the way back to kyiv why not make out stand here?'

[Flarelaine]

Beyond the propaganda value, Bakhmut is a railroad junction.

[YUPPIE]

the reason I understandably have skepticism about its supposed iffy importance is that even Ukrainian intel has stated the fighting in Bahkmut is the bloodiest and most awful for a while now, with a ridiculous mortality rate relative to elsewhere.

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

[Calfredd]

the reason I understandably

"Understandably" my butt!

[Gorsameth]

the reason I understandably have skepticism about its supposed iffy importance is that even Ukrainian intel has stated the fighting in Bahkmut is the bloodiest and most awful for a while now, with a ridiculous mortality rate relative to elsewhere.

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

your wondering why the fighting is most intense at the main pressure point of the Russian attack?

If they were not fighting this hard at Bahkmut they would be fighting this hard at whatever other point Russia chooses to attack at. The intensity wouldn't change, just the location.

[Elder Millennial]

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

Because if the Russians want to throw countless lives and endless resources into a completely meaningless objective it's convenient for the Ukrainians to fight there instead of somewhere where there's something worthwhile to lose.

Losing Bakhmut would ultimately not change anything strategically for Ukraine, on the other hand holding Bakhmut would kill countless Russians and humiliate them.

This is not rocket science, this has been repeated over and over and over and over and over again over the last 5 months. Like on what planet were you? The Russians have no greater plan here, no special strategic insight, no hidden card, nothing. They are just doing what they have been doing for the past 13 months, stupid shit.

What western commentators got wrong, again, was believing that the Russians would eventually take Bakhmut, but Ukrainians in a typical Ukrainian fashion seem to have held onto it, despite every expectation. With other words, 5 months of fighting and countless losses later, Russia once again...FAILED.