1. #30041
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post


    Ahh, what a beautiful day.

    I want to thank all the Russiaboos for making this possible. We truly wouldn't be here without you. Special mention goes out to my man @Shalcker (I know you are lurking you old rascal).
    Brings a tear to the eye, I too would like to thank putin for making the case for why Finland SHOULD join NATO. Without him it would have never happened.

  2. #30042
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Brings a tear to the eye, I too would like to thank putin for making the case for why Finland SHOULD join NATO. Without him it would have never happened.
    Nothing speaks like an utter failure than starting a war under "push back the NATO" banner and ending up doubling your NATO border.

    Honestly, dude must be absolutely fuming. He started this shit to be remembered as some Unite-the-Slavs Tzar, and this is what he got. Hague is yet another punch to the face of his "legacy".
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-04-04 at 03:07 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #30043
    Stood in the Fire Rommon64's Avatar
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    Incidentally, Finland has already submitted their ratification(vote?) of Sweden's NATO application.
    Wiping is Fun! ™

  4. #30044
    Quote Originally Posted by Rommon64 View Post
    Incidentally, Finland has already submitted their ratification(vote?) of Sweden's NATO application.
    Once the Swedes get in Russia will have successfully made NATO the most metal military alliance in the world.

    I hope they're strongly considering changing theme songs for NATO. Or adopting a theme song for NATO if they don't have one. They've got a ton of talented metal bands to choose from!

  5. #30045
    Stood in the Fire Rommon64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Once the Swedes get in Russia will have successfully made NATO the most metal military alliance in the world.

    I hope they're strongly considering changing theme songs for NATO. Or adopting a theme song for NATO if they don't have one. They've got a ton of talented metal bands to choose from!
    It would be right up Sabaton's alley.
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  6. #30046
    I think Sabaton said they don't do post-world war 2 events. At least anymore. They have done so in the past.

  7. #30047
    great now finland will activate article 5 and we will have to fight the dark elves that have been terrorising finnish children for hundreds of years

  8. #30048
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    I think Sabaton said they don't do post-world war 2 events. At least anymore. They have done so in the past.
    Things like this would be interesting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQFPk8n97wk

  9. #30049
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    great now finland will activate article 5 and we will have to fight the dark elves that have been terrorising finnish children for hundreds of years
    Nah, we can handle those...the Moomins on the other hand, when they attack article 5 will come in handy.

  10. #30050
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    I suppose the sooner the offensive wars of all kinds are counted as a genocide, the better for the world?

    A war often is about gaining territory or concessions of other kind. Russia has no intention for concessions, they seek the full extermination of Ukrainian culture, identity, sovereignty and any people they would "allow" to live, would be forced to a life of hell, indoctrinated to support russian regime or DYING.
    The old Clausewitzian adage continues to apply. "War is politics by other means."

    I'm unwilling the label all offensive wars as inherently genocidal as the politics behind said war, whether defensive or offensive determine the morality of said war.

    I can conceptualize scenarios where an offensive war could be both politically and morally justified.

    Imagine if...I don't know...let's Norway started a nuclear program with the explicit and state purpose of using nuclear weapons to annihilate all Swedish cities.

    In such a scenario Sweden or other third parties sympathetic to saving millions of Swedish lives and possibly prevent a larger nuclear conflict would be both politically and morally justified to initiate an offensive war to prevent a worse outcome and the Norwegians opposing said offensive would be morally in the wrong in defending Norway.

    This is a complicated subject.

    Of course, historically speaking such extreme scenarios are rare, and it's way more common for one side or the other to use these scenarios as a false pretense to start an unjust war, Iraq WMDs, Nazi invasion of Poland, Winter War, Caesar in Gaul etc.

    But it's still important to preserve a window for the notion of "just war" as a reality.

    Also even unjust wars can be "not genocidal".

    While the US did invade Iraq under false pretenses, and caused untold losses of human life, it never intended to annihilate the existence of the Iraqi state, national identity, culture or people. In some ways going too far in trying to preserve it (not allowing and supporting and independent Kurdistan).

    Lies were told, and horrible mistakes were made, but the US never went "We want to annihilate you, you don't even exist".

    There are levels of being wrong, and the Russians have taken this war pretty fucking far on the sliding scale towards "the worst".

  11. #30051
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    2, 3, 4 - speculation.
    Really? Just - no words. Go away

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Of course, historically speaking such extreme scenarios are rare
    Vietnam-Cambodia war in 1978

    Can't think of another

    jus ad bellum - edit... forgot no religion
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles
    If I weren't golfing in Thailand right now, where boys can still be boys and I assure you I'm far from impotent, I could link all the sources for you but head to facts4eu and educate yourself, they will have them for you. Too much Guardian is not good for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles
    the dark ages, those were probably the fault of Europe too

  12. #30052
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommon64 View Post
    Incidentally, Finland has already submitted their ratification(vote?) of Sweden's NATO application.
    Roughly 15 seconds into our membership.

  13. #30053
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post

    While the US did invade Iraq under false pretenses, and caused untold losses of human life, it never intended to annihilate the existence of the Iraqi state, national identity, culture or people. In some ways going too far in trying to preserve it (not allowing and supporting and independent Kurdistan).

    Lies were told, and horrible mistakes were made, but the US never went "We want to annihilate you, you don't even exist".

    .
    lol the US invaded to punish muslims for 9/11 and get vengeance. It was pretty genocidal. Bush kept saying he saw Gog and Magog at work in the middle east because hes a mental christian. It was religious war.

    They literally dissolved the state. partnered and empowered murderers, rapists, pedophiles, torturers, and mass killers. (preserve it wtf are you talking about lol?), attacked iraqi national id and didnt even bother trying to understand the culture or the people. Not to mention the war crimes by troops.

  14. #30054
    Yeah…I don’t think pointing to Iraq in a positive light is the play.

  15. #30055
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    China has some interesting messages


    Here are a few highlights of the interview:

    The ambassador downplayed Russia and China’s declaration of a “no limits” friendship last year.

    Just three weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine Presidents Vladimir V. Putin and Xi Jinping signed a joint statement declaring “no limits” to their countries’ friendship. But Mr. Fu said China was not on Russia’s side on the war and that some people “deliberately misinterpret this because there’s the so-called ‘no limit’ friendship or relationship.”

    He added, “‘No limit’ is nothing but rhetoric.”

    Mr. Fu said that China had not provided military assistance to Russia, nor recognized its efforts to annex Ukrainian territories, including Crimea and the Donbas.
    I'm sure it's mainly for the EU but it is still a clear signal.

  16. #30056
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I'm sure it's mainly for the EU but it is still a clear signal.
    It's a meaningless signal. China continues massive anti-western propaganda across the global South. They did not give Putin that "rhetoric" for his sake, they did it to promote their stance as non-interventionists to any nation that has a reason to hate the West (a lot of them) plus any dipshit dictator who'd rather no one pays them a visit. The EU needs to continue to disengage and erect barriers to entry for Chinese investors, barriers that are still limp and pitiful compared to what the Party demands for anyone to do business in their playground.

    Ofc China is pissed at Russia. Ask China how they feel about the right of a majority population in a specific region to vote to secede on the grounds of self-determination. Russia's acts are completely against their dogma of unassailable sovereignty which is not something that Xi came up with, it is millenia old and it is part of the Chinese psyche via the trauma of the Opium wars and the cornerstone of their economic style of "mercantilism for me, capitalism for you". But they will milk this situation against the West every way they can.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-05 at 12:53 PM.

  17. #30057
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It's a meaningless signal. China continues massive anti-western propaganda across the global South. They did not give Putin that "rhetoric" for his sake, they did it to promote their stance as non-interventionists to any nation that has a reason to hate the West (a lot of them) plus any dipshit dictator who'd rather no one pays them a visit. The EU needs to continue to disengage and erect barriers to entry for Chinese investors, barriers that are still limp and pitiful compared to what the Party demands for anyone to do business in their playground.

    Ofc China is pissed at Russia. Ask China how they feel about the right of a majority population in a specific region to vote to secede on the grounds of self-determination. Russia's acts are completely against their dogma of unassailable sovereignty which is not something that Xi came up with, it is millenia old and it is part of the Chinese psyche via the trauma of the Opium wars and the cornerstone of their economic style of "mercantilism for me, capitalism for you". But they will milk this situation against the West every way they can.
    Take it with a grain of salt if you must, but China cannot win can they? If they say they are against the shit in Ukraine people accuse them of being insincere and if they would support russia then, well...you know.

    I for one am glad they do say things like this, as shallow as it may sound, it's the closest we'll come to condemnation from them.

  18. #30058
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Take it with a grain of salt if you must, but China cannot win can they? If they say they are against the shit in Ukraine people accuse them of being insincere and if they would support russia then, well...you know.

    I for one am glad they do say things like this, as shallow as it may sound, it's the closest we'll come to condemnation from them.
    I mean, its hard to ignore their statements of support towards Russia. You can't have a declaration of unlimited friendship weeks before your 'friend' invades another country and not get called out on that shit. They could have had to categorically walk away from Russia and they haven't so what do you expect?

    (and I do believe they have made continued talk of support to Russia since the start of the invasion to compound upon that).

    China is trying to have it both ways where they simultaneously support Russia and are not entirely thrilled about the invasion no one is buying it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #30059
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    So now that Finland joined Nato does this mean that they will send a Nokia phone armor vests to Ukraine solders

    Don't sweat the details!!!

  20. #30060
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    lol the US invaded to punish muslims for 9/11 and get vengeance. It was pretty genocidal. Bush kept saying he saw Gog and Magog at work in the middle east because hes a mental christian. It was religious war.

    They literally dissolved the state. partnered and empowered murderers, rapists, pedophiles, torturers, and mass killers. (preserve it wtf are you talking about lol?), attacked iraqi national id and didnt even bother trying to understand the culture or the people. Not to mention the war crimes by troops.
    No, Bush invaded Iraq because he had a bone to pick with Saddam, a stupid idiotic bone combined with a complete misunderstanding of regional politics, not because it wanted to somehow "take vengeance for 911."

    And yes, the US dismantled the existing state apparatus and went overboard with the de-Baathification, but again that was rooted in a complete lack of understanding of how Iraq worked.

    Iraq is a post colonial state, it suffers from the same issues as many other post colonial states do, namely, there was no such thing as "Iraq" until some colonial power invented it. Its borders do not reflect it's ethno-religious make up. The US never tried to alter then ethnic or religious make up of the country, hell the attempt to organize that post war local power sharing government (staffed by a bunch of dissidents who hadn't set foot in Iraq in decades) was an attempt to preserve "Iraq" as a whole, prevent civil war and create a system which isn't dominated by one minority ethnic group to the detriment of all the others. Of course it was an epic failure, because the US knew nothing and understood less, but the intentions were distinctly not "genocidal" quite the opposite.

    There are distinct Shia, Sunni and Kurdish regions and areas. While the Shia and Sunni often vie for power, the Kurds never wanted to be part of whole shit show and have been staunch allies of the US in both Gulf Wars. Had the US wanted to dismantle Iraq and could have easily done so along ethno-religious lines, and could have even made a good moral argument for doing so especially on behalf of the Kurds.

    I agree that the Iraq war was really really bad, and that that there's a mile long list of people who should be prosecuted as war criminals, but as I said earlier there's a sliding scale of bad and political motivations do influence the ethics of every war.
    Last edited by Elder Millennial; 2023-04-05 at 03:37 PM.

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