1. #30281
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I personally will side with @Saradain on this one and say this is likely more about window dressing than anything.
    I'm old enough to have done mandatory service in the Bundeswehr and while it was only playing soldier and basically a fucking waste of my time I can tell you that the military setting makes people work together closer than elsewhere. I met my best friend there and while the only reason we stayed friends was living in the same city I would have been friends for life with about half of the dudes in the unit if anyone else lived in my city.

    I can only imagine the bonds Ukrainians form with each other who actually fight a war. All it takes to change public opinion is for enough of those soldiers to share their personal experiences.

  2. #30282
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Assuming that the lower rank soldiers are somehow supportive is also a bold claim, as the military is often the chosen career of people from rural / economically weaker areas, which also are often more conservative.
    Good point in peacetime, but right now, the army is a total melting pot. And we have way more stories about men who made it out and felt compelled to go back than about people fleeing the draft. Quite unlike Russia, once again.

    As for the bill being window dressing - if the Ukrainians can act like they like gays and keep up the act long enough, it will still stick.

  3. #30283
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I'm old enough to have done mandatory service in the Bundeswehr and while it was only playing soldier and basically a fucking waste of my time I can tell you that the military setting makes people work together closer than elsewhere. I met my best friend there and while the only reason we stayed friends was living in the same city I would have been friends for life with about half of the dudes in the unit if anyone else lived in my city.
    At the same time, many countries have issues with, shall we say, "right leaning" people within the military.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    All it takes to change public opinion is for enough of those soldiers to share their personal experiences.
    Take a look at the US, they had black people serving in both World Wars and there it still took considerable effort to get Jim Crow laws abolished.
    Can also look at Vietnam, because there the military wasn't segregated anymore and this also didn't become a turning point of race relations.

    Sure, it is possible, but as long as this topic isn't gaining momentum among a broad audience that the rights of LGBTQIA+ people are part of the Ukrainian identity, i'm not going to hold my breath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Good point in peacetime, but right now, the army is a total melting pot. And we have way more stories about men who made it out and felt compelled to go back than about people fleeing the draft. Quite unlike Russia, once again.
    ...with all due respect, Russia isn't the only one employing Propaganda and telling stories about how people are signing up voluntarily in droves are old as fuck.

    Not even mentioning that any male Ukraine citizen of conscription age fleeing Ukraine can expect little sympathy in surrounding countries.
    Imagine fleeing from the war and landing in the same shelter as the wife / mother of men who stayed there and fights - something a Russian man would obviously never encounter.
    And i guess that Ukraine would also politely requests the extradition of anyone eligible of conscription that has fled the country, as they're breaking the law by doing so.

    Would you see entire columns leaving the country like Russia? No, of course not, but there were good reasons why the Ukraine had border guards checking whether any men that can be conscripted want to leave the country (and i assume, still do).
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2023-04-19 at 05:46 PM.

  4. #30284
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Cue Fox Mulder's catchphrase

    I obviously doubt the veracity of this but I want it to be true, and frankly I would not be surprised if he would be getting close to a breaking point. putin may be a "cold fish" but he must be feeling the heat and he's likely seeing assassins in every dark corner and shadow.

    NB: I have no idea how sensationalist this twatter is, I just thought it was funny. But, hey! propaganda is alive and kicking on all sides.

  5. #30285
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    And i guess that Ukraine would also politely requests the extradition of anyone eligible of conscription that has fled the country, as they're breaking the law by doing so.
    They don't.

  6. #30286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Cue Fox Mulder's catchphrase

    I obviously doubt the veracity of this but I want it to be true, and frankly I would not be surprised if he would be getting close to a breaking point. putin may be a "cold fish" but he must be feeling the heat and he's likely seeing assassins in every dark corner and shadow.

    NB: I have no idea how sensationalist this twatter is, I just thought it was funny. But, hey! propaganda is alive and kicking on all sides.
    As lovely as it would be if that is true at all, no point underestimating even the most deranged of enemies. But he deserves all of that, and worse.

    But then, the image of cold and calculating leader is what some people want to see him as...But in the end, a human with such stress levels is prone to breaking. Orcish tribal leader or not.

  7. #30287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Cue Fox Mulder's catchphrase

    I obviously doubt the veracity of this but I want it to be true, and frankly I would not be surprised if he would be getting close to a breaking point. putin may be a "cold fish" but he must be feeling the heat and he's likely seeing assassins in every dark corner and shadow.

    NB: I have no idea how sensationalist this twatter is, I just thought it was funny. But, hey! propaganda is alive and kicking on all sides.
    I mean, being head of the state is a huge pressure. Being a murderous head of a bandit state that did a biggest blunder of his life just adds that extra special thing on top. Something has to give, eventually.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  8. #30288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    As lovely as it would be if that is true at all, no point underestimating even the most deranged of enemies. But he deserves all of that, and worse.

    But then, the image of cold and calculating leader is what some people want to see him as...But in the end, a human with such stress levels is prone to breaking. Orcish tribal leader or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, being head of the state is a huge pressure. Being a murderous head of a bandit state that did a biggest blunder of his life just adds that extra special thing on top. Something has to give, eventually.
    If this is true though, the end of Stalin comes to mind

  9. #30289
    good to see igor sushko has gone from 'i have secret agents within the russian state ready to otherthrow putin' 'attack on putins convoy in attempted assasination' to 'putin pooped himself'

    really if someone wants to make up fantasy stuff they should at least call putin a clone or introduce aliens and ghoolies.

  10. #30290
    Medvedev is doing his drunk jester routine again, saying that if south Korea dares to send weapons to Ukraine then north Korea will be given 'advanced' russian gear. Ignoring the fact they were begging NK for equipment not long ago.

    The Ukrainians, being the funny guys they are, responded by saying given russia is deploying t55s they must mean they will be sending t34s to NK.

  11. #30291
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Pretty sure it developed in Bulgaria?
    First Bulgarian Empire around Preslav was the first known use of Cyrillic. If you count Glagolitic then it could be Thessaloniki since that's where Cyril and Methodius were born but oldest known use was in Great Moravia. Which is centred today in Czechia and Slovak Republics with maybe (It's hypothesised, never proven) some overlap in Germany, Poland, Hungary Austria and a small part in an area of Ukraine that the Soviets took from Czechoslovakia after WW2.

  12. #30292
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Pretty sure it developed in Bulgaria?
    It was, but Bulgaria hasn't exactly been a major power throughout more recent years to put it mildly, so it isn't really that surprising people associate it more with countries such as Russia.

  13. #30293
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    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2023-04-20/

    April 20 (Reuters) - A Russian warplane accidentally fired a weapon into the city of Belgorod near Ukraine late on Thursday, causing an explosion and damaging buildings, Tass cited the defence ministry as saying.

    Local authorities reported a large blast in the city, which lies just across the border from Ukraine. The regional governor said two women had been injured.

    "As a Sukhoi Su-34 air force plane was flying over the city of Belgorod there was an accidental discharge of aviation ammunition," Tass cited the defence ministry as saying.

    It did not say what kind of weapon was involved.

    The Su-34 is a supersonic fighter-bomber jet.

    The ministry said some buildings had been damaged and announced a probe was already under way, according to Tass.

    Belgorod region governor Vyacheslav Gladkov, announcing a state of emergency, said on Telegram there was a crater measuring 20 metres (65 feet) across on one of the main streets. Four cars and four apartment buildings were damaged, he added.

    Video footage from the site showed piles of concrete on the street, several damaged cars and a building with broken windows. One shot showed what appeared to be car upside down on the roof of a store.

    The Belgorod region is one of several parts of southern Russia where targets such as fuel and ammunition stores have been rocked by explosions since the start of what Moscow calls its "special military operation" in Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022.
    Russia, what is wrong? Why do you not blame ukrainian black ops black magic mind controlling grannies this time? Or nazis?

    It begs asking, did Russia get inspired by Elon Musk with the creative wording "accidental discharge of aviation ammunition" or as commonly known, "Russia bombs its own city"?

  14. #30294
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2023-04-20/



    Russia, what is wrong? Why do you not blame ukrainian black ops black magic mind controlling grannies this time? Or nazis?

    It begs asking, did Russia get inspired by Elon Musk with the creative wording "accidental discharge of aviation ammunition" or as commonly known, "Russia bombs its own city"?
    Stupid fucks...but you are right, WTF did they admit they bombed their own city...even accidentally when they can just say: "it was those darn Ukrainians."

  15. #30295
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2023-04-20/



    Russia, what is wrong? Why do you not blame ukrainian black ops black magic mind controlling grannies this time? Or nazis?

    It begs asking, did Russia get inspired by Elon Musk with the creative wording "accidental discharge of aviation ammunition" or as commonly known, "Russia bombs its own city"?
    "two women were injured" ~ Russia


    So how many Russians actually died? What's the over/under on +/- 50? Especially because they aren't blaming Ukraine?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Stupid fucks...but you are right, WTF did they admit they bombed their own city...even accidentally when they can just say: "it was those darn Ukrainians."
    Well remember the ur-lie they have to keep going, here: that Russia has the situation mostly under control.

    Do you want your citizens to think that a random fluke that "luckily didn't even kill anyone" was just a one-off mistake... or tell them that your enemy, that you provoked, suddenly has the ability to strike into your country with aircraft, is actively doing so, and your country is powerless to stop it?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2023-04-20 at 11:18 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #30296
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Well remember the ur-lie they have to keep going, here: that Russia has the situation mostly under control.

    Do you want your citizens to think that a random fluke that "luckily didn't even kill anyone" was just a one-off mistake... or tell them that your enemy, that you provoked, suddenly has the ability to strike into your country with aircraft, is actively doing so, and your country is powerless to stop it?
    Neither option seems tempting, but saying your army is incompetent seems not very useful.

  17. #30297
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Medvedev is doing his drunk jester routine again, saying that if south Korea dares to send weapons to Ukraine then north Korea will be given 'advanced' russian gear. Ignoring the fact they were begging NK for equipment not long ago.
    The second sentence aside, how is the first even supposed to be scary? North Korea has nukes already...
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  18. #30298
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Neither option seems tempting, but saying your army is incompetent seems not very useful.
    Sure, but like I said it's far less likely to stir people into an internal state of panic (and potentially protest/rebellion) than if they were to think that this war that Russia is keeping them in could now result in them being blown up from the sky.

    Russians as a whole seem fairly resolved to simply keeping the status quo as it pertains to the war, and despite all the propaganda they're subject to I don't imagine that in a world still as interconnected as this one that they are, as a whole, under that grand a delusion about the pointlessness of their efforts in Ukraine or their rather embarrassing performance therein. Nevertheless they maintain the whole "keep your head down, keep quiet, and just go with the flow" mentality that resulted in a guy like Putin becoming a dictator that sends their young men to die for nothing, because they know speaking up will draw ire down upon them.

    But in order for that to work, they need to think that in doing nothing they're (relatively) safe. Right now, they fear reprisal from the government, and so long as they let the war continue they're safe. But if the equation suddenly becomes "if the war continues, I become less safe" because they think, for example, that Ukraine is now able to target Russian cities and civilians with as much inhumane contempt as the Russians do Ukrainians, then there's eventually a tipping point where they fear the Ukrainians more than the Russian government, and decide that maybe this whole charade they've been tacitly supporting is no longer worth it.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  19. #30299
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Sure, but like I said it's far less likely to stir people into an internal state of panic (and potentially protest/rebellion) than if they were to think that this war that Russia is keeping them in could now result in them being blown up from the sky.

    Russians as a whole seem fairly resolved to simply keeping the status quo as it pertains to the war, and despite all the propaganda they're subject to I don't imagine that in a world still as interconnected as this one that they are, as a whole, under that grand a delusion about the pointlessness of their efforts in Ukraine or their rather embarrassing performance therein. Nevertheless they maintain the whole "keep your head down, keep quiet, and just go with the flow" mentality that resulted in a guy like Putin becoming a dictator that sends their young men to die for nothing, because they know speaking up will draw ire down upon them.

    But in order for that to work, they need to think that in doing nothing they're (relatively) safe. Right now, they fear reprisal from the government, and so long as they let the war continue they're safe. But if the equation suddenly becomes "if the war continues, I become less safe" because they think, for example, that Ukraine is now able to target Russian cities and civilians with as much inhumane contempt as the Russians do Ukrainians, then there's eventually a tipping point where they fear the Ukrainians more than the Russian government, and decide that maybe this whole charade they've been tacitly supporting is no longer worth it.
    All fair points, there is something else though, if Ukraine is striking russia then that could be used to rally the populace, so there is actually an incentive to blame Ukrainians as well. This war has taken some weird twists and turns to be sure.

  20. #30300
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    All fair points, there is something else though, if Ukraine is striking russia then that could be used to rally the populace, so there is actually an incentive to blame Ukrainians as well. This war has taken some weird twists and turns to be sure.
    I don’t imagine that most of the Russian population actually cares one iota for this war. They probably know that they aren’t fighting NATO or nazis or whatever, they know this is their crazy country being crazy and, like I said, are just sort of tacitly supporting it through inaction and complicity even though it’s wreaking havoc on Russia’s economy and future prospects. Because a slow but steady degradation of their rights and economic prosperity is still preferable to prison, forced conscription, or just up and being black bagged.

    So as I said my guess would be that the notion that the war they started, have done nothing to stop, and that they know Russia could end at any time, is suddenly coming to hit them at home would terrify them and really start to make them question the equation of whether they’re safer condoning the war amidst apparent Ukrainian escalation or working to end it.

    And Russia has made this their game plan for a while now, including that ship Ukraine sank that Russia initially blamed on a “storm.” They don’t want it to seem like Ukraine has a fighting chance and is a fearsome opponent Russia continues to pester for no real reason, moreso than they ever want to appear competent. Because the notion that Ukraine has a fighting chance would probably come as more of an unnerving notion to the average Russian than the fact that their government is incompetent, which I’m sure they already know.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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