1. #31261
    Quote Originally Posted by Canpinter View Post
    I think it's more that this drone "attack" didn't seem to actually do anything so why would Ukraine waist the resources?
    haven't seen the drones or munitions on them yet only
    'At least one of the drones appears to have been a Ukrainian-manufactured UJ 22, produced by the Ukrjet company. Footage appears to match images of the unmanned aerial vehicle, which Russia has claimed has been used in other attempted attacks. Looking like a scaled-down light aircraft, the UJ22 has a claimed range of 800km and is able to fly for six hours.'
    ,

    testing defenses? revenge for the constant barrages on kyiv? targeting the airport?

    'One goal of the drone strikes against Moscow may be as a “shaping” operation to pull Russian air defences away from the frontlines in order to protect large population centres.'
    etc etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    What exactly is the point of flying some expensive drones over something that is very likely going to shoot them down, and not even intend to use them to attack that something?! There are no strategic points in Moscow other than Putin himself.
    not expensive and symbolism?

  2. #31262
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    not really sure why people go 'must be a false flag' like maga people do after every mass shooting. Proper alex jones stuff.
    BECAUSE.THE.RUSSIANS.HAVE.A.LONG.ASS.HISTORY.WITH.FALSE.FLAG.SHIT. and more importantly PUTIN.HAS.A.HISTORY.WITH.FALSE.FLAG.SHIT. To make thing worse, most false flag stunts are often comically and hilariously idiotic, because nobody is allowed fact check anything Russia. They have no press, no media, no Bellingcat etc.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/88gd...ombing-ukraine
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...y-easy-debunk/
    https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news...e-sims-3212671
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_R...tment_bombings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

    There is a PATTERN.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post

    testing defenses? revenge for the constant barrages on kyiv? targeting the airport?
    Do you realize how far Moscow is from Ukraine? You understand that there are very few drones out there that could cover that distance?

    And if they were launched from inside Russia, why the shit would one bother with the absolute logistical hassle of getting over the border undetected, launching and flying the drones from somewhere around Moscow? What sane human being would risk human assets that they somehow managed to get that far into Russia for...fuck all?

  3. #31263
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    BECAUSE.THE.RUSSIANS.HAVE.A.LONG.ASS.HISTORY.WITH.FALSE.FLAG.SHIT. and more importantly PUTIN.HAS.A.HISTORY.WITH.FALSE.FLAG.SHIT. To make thing worse, most false flag stunts are often comically and hilariously idiotic, because nobody is allowed fact check anything Russia. They have no press, no media, no Bellingcat etc.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/88gd...ombing-ukraine
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...y-easy-debunk/
    https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news...e-sims-3212671
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_R...tment_bombings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

    There is a PATTERN.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Do you realize how far Moscow is from Ukraine? You understand that there are very few drones out there that could cover that distance?

    And if they were launched from inside Russia, why the shit would one bother with the absolute logistical hassle of getting over the border undetected, launching and flying the drones from somewhere around Moscow? What sane human being would risk human assets that they somehow managed to get that far into Russia for...fuck all?
    There are shit loads of drones that can cover that distance???

    'At least one of the drones appears to have been a Ukrainian-manufactured UJ 22, produced by the Ukrjet company. Footage appears to match images of the unmanned aerial vehicle, which Russia has claimed has been used in other attempted attacks. Looking like a scaled-down light aircraft, the UJ22 has a claimed range of 800km and is able to fly for six hours.'

    The drone looks pretty much like a UJ22 from the video of that russian lad filming it out his window saying (holy shit its going over my house)

    For your false flag to work russians would have to get hold of a uj22, have some sort of reason for doing it??????? (probably the glaring problem with the theory), and once again they dont seem to have any propaganda ready??

    It was likely launched from Ukraine.

    Although maybe we should keep going with the conspiracy theory that doesn't make any sense, maybe it was the lizard people.

  4. #31264
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    There are shit loads of drones that can cover that distance???

    'At least one of the drones appears to have been a Ukrainian-manufactured UJ 22, produced by the Ukrjet company. Footage appears to match images of the unmanned aerial vehicle, which Russia has claimed has been used in other attempted attacks. Looking like a scaled-down light aircraft, the UJ22 has a claimed range of 800km and is able to fly for six hours.'

    The drone looks pretty much like a UJ22 from the video of that russian lad filming it out his window saying (holy shit its going over my house)

    For your false flag to work russians would have to get hold of a uj22, have some sort of reason for doing it??????? (probably the glaring problem with the theory), and once again they dont seem to have any propaganda ready??

    It was likely launched from Ukraine.

    Although maybe we should keep going with the conspiracy theory that doesn't make any sense, maybe it was the lizard people.
    The shortest distance from Ukraine to Moscow, in an absolute straight line is 850 KM. This assuming absolutely no loitering or navigation. Assuming the Ukrainians somehow magically squeezed out another 100+km of range at minimum, and launched right from the border it's still a stretch.

    Here's the thing, I'm not actually saying it wasn't the Ukrainians, I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to assume it was some kind of false flag operation until proven otherwise because the Russians have a storied history with false flags and they are absolutely not above killing their own civilians, including children to drum up political support for wars.
    Last edited by Elder Millennial; 2023-05-30 at 03:34 PM.

  5. #31265
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    The shortest distance from Ukraine to Moscow, in an absolute straight line is 850 KM. This assuming absolutely no loitering or navigation. Assuming the Ukrainians somehow magically squeezed out another 100+km of range at minimum, and launched right from the border it's still a stretch.

    Here's the thing, I'm not actually saying it wasn't the Ukrainians, I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to assume it was some kind of false flag operation until proven otherwise because the Russians have a storied history with false flags and they are absolutely not above killing their own civilians, including women and children to drum up political support for wars.
    it is unreasonable! its the same as maga's jumping to false flag everything. Conspiratorial thinking is a bad state of mind to get into.

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...31965469933568

    Its usually the most likely course of events happened. Which in this case is Ukraine chucked some drones at Moscow. (not a uj22 now more info has come out). Why? because they are at war and think it will be useful.

  6. #31266
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Which in this case is Ukraine chucked some drones at Moscow. (not a uj22 now more info has come out). Why? because they are at war and think it will be useful.
    Why would Russia launch a false flag operation, because they are fighting an unpopular war, and they think it will be politically useful.

    Also, I'd like to remind you, none of these drones in Moscow were targeting anything with any military value.

    Remember our conversation from a few days ago where you adamantly stated the Ukrainians wouldn't target civilians and civilian infrastructure, or just random Russian cities just because it was politically useful?

    Can you decide what's your actual position on the possibility of escalation and Ukraine targeting or not civilians?

    Because the only utility of this "raid" on Moscow from a Ukrainian perspective, would be the desire to make Russian civilians feel the effects of this conflict.

  7. #31267
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post
    Why would Russia launch a false flag operation, because they are fighting an unpopular war, and they think it will be politically useful.

    Also, I'd like to remind you, none of these drones in Moscow were targeting anything with any military value.

    Remember our conversation from a few days ago where you adamantly stated the Ukrainians wouldn't target civilians and civilian infrastructure, or just random Russian cities just because it was politically useful?

    Can you decide what's your actual position on the possibility of escalation and Ukraine targeting or not civilians?

    Because the only utility of this "raid" on Moscow from a Ukrainian perspective, would be the desire to make Russian civilians feel the effects of this conflict.
    Here is my full consistent take :

    'Hitting random population centers doesn't make any sense for Ukraine to do in any military sense and wouldn't help them win the war.'
    'Ukraine probably threw some drones at Moscow, i would bet my house on it.'

    i have no idea what they were targeting or why they did it. But i'm pretty sure it was them.

  8. #31268
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Here is my full consistent take :

    'Hitting random population centers doesn't make any sense for Ukraine to do in any military sense and wouldn't help them win the war.'
    'Ukraine probably threw some drones at Moscow, i would bet my house on it.'

    i have no idea what they were targeting or why they did it. But i'm pretty sure it was them.
    Allow me to translate.

    "Instead of admitting I was wrong, I'm going to pretend I cannot possibly imagine why would Ukraine target Moscow, but I know it was Ukraine targeting Moscow."

    Right after saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Why? because they are at war and think it will be useful.
    Bruh.



    It's OK to be wrong and admit you're wrong. Because if it was the Ukrainians, you already admitted you actually understand why they would do it. And if it wasn't Ukraine, you're just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

  9. #31269
    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Millennial View Post

    It's OK to be wrong and admit you're wrong. Because if it was the Ukrainians, you already admitted you actually understand why they would do it. And if it wasn't Ukraine, you're just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
    allow me to translate.

    I dont personally think its useful to hit pop centers.
    Ukraine might think it is which is why they have done (still dont know what the target was)

    Really don't see how this is contrarian.

  10. #31270
    It was Ukraine that did it. They have defied the US several times with discreet incursions into Moscow before, though those were assassinations mostly.

    Now I have no sympathy for the Russian people obviously, but I don't know why Ukraine would try to poke their benefactor when they say "don't do this."
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  11. #31271
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    allow me to translate.

    I dont personally think its useful to hit pop centers.
    Ukraine might think it is which is why they have done (still dont know what the target was)

    Really don't see how this is contrarian.
    Our entire earlier conversation was about how "Strategic objectives are determined by internal politics." And I am pointing out that both parties here would have politically logical reason for doing this. Ukraine's objective would be to make the Russian population realize that they are in fact at war and aren't out of harms way, and to prove that "Daddy Putin" can't protect them. And Russia could want to use this as an excuse to motivate the Russian population which isn't very keen on this war, and Russia has in the past used lethal internal false flags for the exact same reason.

    So at this junction, either side could still be responsible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    It was Ukraine that did it. They have defied the US several times with discreet incursions into Moscow before, though those were assassinations mostly.

    Now I have no sympathy for the Russian people obviously, but I don't know why Ukraine would try to poke their benefactor when they say "don't do this."
    They haven't defied their benefactors. Assuming they did it.

    Ukraine maintains plausible deniability so far. If anyone will take recognition it will be one of the Ukraine sponsored Russian partisan groups and the hardware used will likely be something commercially available and modified, nothing that will have a big USAF/RAF/Ukrainian Air Force sticker on it.

    NATO's conditions were for Ukraine not to use NATO donated hardware inside Russia.

    Even in Belgorod, those Humvees etc weren't operated under Ukrainian flag, they were operated by Russian partisans, so TECHNICALLY there was no rule breaking there.
    Last edited by Elder Millennial; 2023-05-30 at 04:48 PM.

  12. #31272
    I mean, I could buy that it was Ukraine.

    The russian population need to wake up and stop ignoring this shit. There's a reason putin is unwilling to do a full scale mobilization.

    He has worked for decades to make russian un-motivated politically. Any kind of mobilization would wake them up potentially and force them to stop looking away from the awful shit that's happening. That is a recipe for disaster for putin. Uncontrolled masses, which of more than half might potentially side with no-war folk?

    We all know that shit will not get better if russians don't rise up. So there's nothing to lose, so to speak, from Ukrainian point of view to attack moscow like this. What would putin do exactly? Kill them all even harder? Ukraine seem to understand that putin already "nukes" cities - just slowly. Mariupol might as well have been nuked. Ukraine understands that he gets away with shit because it's slow.
    Last edited by Voidism; 2023-05-30 at 05:06 PM.

  13. #31273
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I mean, I could buy that it was Ukraine.

    The russian population need to wake up and stop ignoring this shit. There's a reason putin is unwilling to do a full scale mobilization.

    He has worked for decades to make russian un-motivated politically. Any kind of mobilization would wake them up potentially and force them to stop looking away from the awful shit that's happening. That is a recipe for disaster for putin. Uncontrolled masses, which of more than half might potentially side with no-war folk?

    We all know that shit will not get better if russians don't rise up. So there's nothing to lose, so to speak, from Ukrainian point of view to attack moscow like this. What would putin do exactly? Kill them all even harder? Ukraine seem to understand that putin already "nukes" cities - just slowly. Mariupol might as well have been nuked. Ukraine understands that he gets away with shit because it's slow.
    Haha, no. /10

  14. #31274
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidism View Post
    I mean, I could buy that it was Ukraine.

    The russian population need to wake up and stop ignoring this shit. There's a reason putin is unwilling to do a full scale mobilization.

    He has worked for decades to make russian un-motivated politically. Any kind of mobilization would wake them up potentially and force them to stop looking away from the awful shit that's happening. That is a recipe for disaster for putin. Uncontrolled masses, which of more than half might potentially side with no-war folk?

    We all know that shit will not get better if russians don't rise up. So there's nothing to lose, so to speak, from Ukrainian point of view to attack moscow like this. What would putin do exactly? Kill them all even harder? Ukraine seem to understand that putin already "nukes" cities - just slowly. Mariupol might as well have been nuked. Ukraine understands that he gets away with shit because it's slow.
    I'm not convinced that a Russian realization that they are in fact at war would inherently mean that Russians would go "no war".

    Odds are that two (or more) broadly nationalist factions would emerge.

    One faction would go "Putin sucks, we aren't killing Ukrainians hard enough, we look weak, we need someone stronker." The other would be "Putin's stronk, but he is being stabbed in the back by traitors."

    Other potential factions would be like the Neo Nazis (they were Neo Nazis) running the Belgorod operation who want "Russia stronk!" they just don't think Putin's the guy for that or that internecine wars with other Slavs is a bright idea, or some regional separatist movements.

    Currently there seems to be no real strong "anti-war" faction in Russia, especially none capable of organized violence. What there are, are a whole bunch of different nationalist loons of various flavors.

  15. #31275
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Here is my full consistent take :

    'Hitting random population centers doesn't make any sense for Ukraine to do in any military sense and wouldn't help them win the war.'
    'Ukraine probably threw some drones at Moscow, i would bet my house on it.'

    i have no idea what they were targeting or why they did it. But i'm pretty sure it was them.
    Throwing their missiles at houses when they could be hitting supply depots is counter-productive for Ukraine. I'm not saying this rules them out, but does not make much sense especially when getting more ordnance pretty much depends on showing their homework on how they used them.

  16. #31276
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Throwing their missiles at houses when they could be hitting supply depots is counter-productive for Ukraine. I'm not saying this rules them out, but does not make much sense especially when getting more ordnance pretty much depends on showing their homework on how they used them.
    I doubt this was "ordinance".

    Assuming this was in fact Ukraine, what this likely was is Ukraine financed and supported Russian groups operating inside Russia equipped with modified commercially available drones, straight off of Ali Express.

  17. #31277
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    You really can't assume that what's being stated publicly aligns with the realities on the ground on either side. I would be shocked if we didn't have CIA assets and spec ops advising everything the Ukrainians do.

    As long as nobody claims responsibility they can maintain plausible deniability, and even if drones were captured it could be discredited as Kremlin propagandists doing a false flag.

    Disinformation is part of warfare.

  18. #31278
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Throwing their missiles at houses when they could be hitting supply depots is counter-productive for Ukraine. I'm not saying this rules them out, but does not make much sense especially when getting more ordnance pretty much depends on showing their homework on how they used them.
    i agree its counter productive but looking at the drone : https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...31965469933568

    its obviously ukranian, probably launched from inside ukraine.

    The whole russians attacking themselves false flag doesn't make any sense (not just for common sense reasons), they are firing Pantsir missile's at the drones. Its not like you would waste those to shoot them down if they were part of some bullshit scheme.

  19. #31279
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    I hope they keep it up. Incursions, more bombings inside Russia, the show must go on.

    Tuesday’s strikes, however, seem qualitatively different than previous attacks. For starters, this was not a symbolic blow against the Russian state, such as the murky drone strike on the Kremlin. Instead, it appeared to strike near the heart of Russia’s political and economic elite. Some of the drones apparently hit or flew over Rublyovka, a prestigious suburban area in Moscow’s southwest where oligarchs, politicians and top officials live in luxurious gated communities. The area is also very close to Putin’s Novo-Ogaryovo residence where the Russian leader is known to spend most of his time.
    Burn their fucking houses to the ground. Show these "elites" the price of supporting Putin. Strike where the rats congregate.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2023-05-30 at 06:15 PM.

  20. #31280
    I think these incursions paint a negative picture in a broader sense, one which you people here aren't looking at (I think).

    For a time, the Kremlin said if Ukraine threatened their sovereignty, which amounted to attacking Moscow or their annexed territories, they would nuke them. But Ukraine has become emboldened enough to have, externally or not, attacked Moscow in some capacity numerous times. Not to mention how far Ukraine has been willing to go to reclaim Russia's illegally annexed lands.

    The fact Moscow hasn't launched a nuke yet despite this means it is a bluff and everyone knows it. So with that bluff completely called out, why doesn't NATO or the West as a whole put their boots on the ground in Ukraine and force Russia back to their borders and end this destructive conflict?

    That means needless blood is on the West's hands for inaction, which I point to being for personal gain. They want this to keep going and have the ability to completely end it now.
    Last edited by YUPPIE; 2023-05-30 at 06:38 PM.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

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