Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Elder Millennial]

I mean, I get that this could happen, but you're not going to change the mind of people struggling to get by. It is what it is.

This conflict is not limited to Ukraine. The conflict is rooted in Russian imperialism. They have been testing and pushing international norms for a good 15 years. Escalating, step by step. The ultimate goal is to challenge NATO's article 5. If that happens one of two things will happen, a massive NATO retaliation and a massive global economic turmoil, (hopefully no nuclear exchange) the other being the collapse of NATO, the EU and by proxy the entire modern economic and political order. The financial turmoil then, would be absolutely off the charts. In either situations the outcome will make the fallout from this war look like child's play.

You're engaging in faux populism here. One either driven by genuine profound ignorance or by a malicious desire to actually see one of the above 2 outcomes.

And that's just the Russia dimension of this war, broadly ignoring what China's role would be in either of those scenarios.

Your position is dumb or malicious, fix it. It is what it is.

[Nymrohd]

We're only human. And when we are struggling to afford to live, when our family and friends are barely getting by, you will always have people showing resistance to whatever suddenly set that scale off balance.

Afghanistan cost vastly more annually than support to Ukraine does. So people who assign blame to this war for their living conditions are willfully misinformed.

[Edge-]

You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.

Because they're stupid and obstinate, that's not our fault.

People can choose to believe that Ukraine is why their landlord doubled their rent and why their insurance increased. They'll be wrong and their opinions are consequently to be ignored if they refuse to learn and choose to believe their fictions.

[ghotihook]

Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.

Covid yes, Ukraine No.

[Elder Millennial]

Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

The economic costs of the war, at least in the west, have already been mostly mitigated. The things you're talking about have very very little to do either with Ukraine or COVID, and are mostly the culmination of decades of economic and financial policies made worse by rampant and savage price gouging that governments in the west seem to utterly unwilling to address.

[Elegiac]

But can you maybe understand them doubling-down when your first response to someone, who's just trying to mind their business and provide for their family, is that they're "stupid and obstinate". Cause while you may be against these people, they make up a large percent of the population, and not everyone is as invested into throughly researching US spending and then breaking it down to see the total costs. Cause as said, these are simple people living simple lives and that's how they're gonna stay, especially if they come from an older, different generation.

Approaching the conversation correctly is important to keep the conversation moving, cause the petty shit immediately stops that from happening and you only turn people immediately against you.

Replace "the War in Ukraine" with "the presence of minorities" and you'll understand why white knighting for the ignorant is a particularly tasteless line of argument.

[Gabriel]

MAGA cultists are incapable of changing their mind. Why would I ever try to approach them in good faith? Only thing it accomplishes is empowering their message by giving it the credit of being addressed properly, like it would warrant it.

The best course of action with sufficiently dumb people, who have already made up their mind, is to shame them enough for them to shut up.

[Gabriel]

People who are shut up on social media, go to the polls with a big ass grudge, just remember that.

As opposed to going to the polls with their dear leader's words ringing in their ears? Yeah I don't care.

[Elegiac]

I live around a lot of Republicans. Some like Trump, some don't, but the thing they have most in common, that I've seen, is their desire to just have people mind their own business. And I'll tell you this, the vast majority that I meet are just humble people trying to provide for their family.

It's entirely different to hear a persons perspective when you're face to face, which I do (town halls). It's easy for us to not have as much compassion for a person we never see because we're on a computer.

Them being "humble people just trying to get by and mind their own business" is neither related to nor an excuse for swallowing disinformation and then letting that disinformation determine where they throw their political weight - especially when they throw their political weight behind a party that does nothing but refuse to let people mind their own business.

The only measure of sympathy they deserve is that extended to anyone that has fallen into a cult or con, which ends when they start using it as a springboard for making life difficult for others whether that's by supporting state violence against minorities or by supporting appeasement of a fascist trying to annex a democratic republic.

You're not less of a bigot because your bigotry has a sad or sympathetic backstory.

People who are shut up on social media, go to the polls with a big ass grudge, just remember that.

There's no evidence to suggest this, especially when you consider that the people getting banned off social media for hateful conduct were certainly never going to vote Democrat.

[The Stormbringer]

But can you maybe understand them doubling-down when your first response to someone, who's just trying to mind their business and provide for their family, is that they're "stupid and obstinate". Cause while you may be against these people, they make up a large percent of the population, and not everyone is as invested into throughly researching US spending and then breaking it down to see the total costs. Cause as said, these are simple people living simple lives and that's how they're gonna stay, especially if they come from an older, different generation.

Approaching the conversation correctly is important to keep the conversation moving, cause the petty shit immediately stops that from happening and you only turn people immediately against you.

The problem with 'just trying to mind your own business' is when you actively do things that endanger everyone in the process. If these people are saying, "I think the War in Ukraine is none of our business, and we shouldn't be in it." then they are advocating for the suffering of others even though it actually costs them nothing. Let's say that it just comes from a place of ignorance however, and so you straight up tell them, "No, the War in Ukraine isn't actually hurting us like you think it is. You're not being hurt by this. Anyone telling you that is lying to you." and then they don't accept that, or continue to disagree, then they're being malicious.

If it's instead just a matter of them wanting it explained to them more clearly, it is possible to break it down into more local terms. It's like if you were voting to ban for immigrants who work at local farms. Those immigrants aren't hurting you, if anything they're helping in a roundabout way by taking jobs no one else wants. Voting to get rid of them will actively hurt your local economy and impact your food prices.

It's a lot more complicated than "we should mind our own business".

[Forogil]

Covid yes, Ukraine No.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine did also cause a price-shock in many parts of the world - especially for food and energy prices.

I'm not talking about the cost of supporting Ukraine, but both sanctions of Russia (and Belarus) and the fact that Ukraine (and Russia in case someone is stupid enough to support them) cannot produce as much as before.

That is more visible in Europe - but I'm pretty sure it also impacted the US; https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog...362af3.en.html

[Elegiac]

I’m not suggesting to just let them think that if you have the opportunity to, not correct or teach them, rather just have a discussion… a conversation.

The interaction between the two is important, and if you approach it hostile, like so many do, that person defending themselves starts doubling down. And then where did we end up? We didn’t move forward. We’re stuck.

This is a motte and bailey argument.

Saying that a civil approach to debate can be an effective method of convincing (some) people is not the same thing as saying that a political position couched in right wing disinformation is understandable or sympathetic. You opened with the latter, and now that people have pointed out how indefensible that argument is you've shifted to the former.

[No Kings Voter]

Cant put down that Pew Poll. Like it's reading this thread ....

Also the same group to most likely make up fabulist bull shit on gaming forums.



Then project themselves as "thee victim".

[Belize]

Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.

Covid yes, Ukraine no.
You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.

[Elegiac]

Covid yes, Ukraine no.
You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.

I get my news from overseas sources and whatever pops up on Twitter.

Mystery solved. We did it, Reddit.

[No Kings Voter]

Covid yes, Ukraine no.
You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.

Also, voting for Republicans. Because in my county Democrats want to increase develeopment for housing and commerce and ruin my small town.


Got what they voted for, then projecting blame. This is 98% of conservatE posts.

[Wilian]

Covid yes, Ukraine no.
You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.

Some European countries decoupling from Russian energy vassalage certainly drove up a lot of prices in a lot of Europe because of the shift in energy and few months' of struggle in it.

[Elder Millennial]

Pure comedy gold.

A man who claimed on Chinese TikTok that he was a Russian special forces operative was suspended from the platform on Saturday after it was revealed that he was a man in the Henan province trying to sell products online.

The content creator, who called himself Baoer Kechatie, had around 400,000 followers on Douyin, China's version of TikTok, before the social media company cracked down on his grift.

"Some accounts have been posting videos, claiming to be from Russia and soldiers at war. In that time, they spread false information such as 'battlefield videos' and 'battlefield movements' to attract attention and gain traffic," Douyin wrote in a statement on Saturday.

The TikToker would make wild claims in his videos, saying he was a Chechnyan soldier deployed on the front line in Ukraine and that he even defeated US Marines and secured an M1911 pistol from one of them. To be clear — there are no active-duty US Marines fighting in the war.

Because US marines still run around with 1911s....

Gets better...

"I arrived and went 'psh psh psh psh,'" he said in one video describing the imaginary confrontation, making a smacking motion with his hand.

https://www.douyin.com/video/7244529989897489698

Still, the ploy appeared to fool some users. Baoer Kechatie managed to sell some products on his online store, such as milk powder and honey imported from Russia, according to Chinese blogger "A Gossiping Crane," who took screenshots of the TikToker's page.

State-owned outlet Sixth Tone also reported that multiple social media users bought vodka from the TikToker's account.

Meanwhile, other people lauded Baoer Kechatie in comments on his videos, writing "Ura," a war cry used by the Russian army.

[Jastall]

Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.

Factually, Ukraine is a footnote in your nation's global military spending, and likely the most bang for the buck that the Pentagon has gotten in taxpayer dollars in 30 years.

If gravely misinformed people think otherwise, oh well, what can one do. I'm sure they'll next blame this situation on blue-haired SJW in colleges or whatever else draws their ire the next day.

[Deus Mortis]

Factually, Ukraine is a footnote in your nation's global military spending, and likely the most bang for the buck that the Pentagon has gotten in taxpayer dollars in 30 years.

If gravely misinformed people think otherwise, oh well, what can one do. I'm sure they'll next blame this situation on blue-haired SJW in colleges or whatever else draws their ire the next day.

To add onto what you said, most of the equipment we have sent has already been bought and paid for decades ago. The cost to ship the stuff is most likely cheaper than keeping it running and then getting rid of it when it meets the end of life date. The benefits to America in the long term are far too great for people to pass up. You have your #2 rival having their vast stocks depleted with very few ways to even rebuild it. Ukraine will become an ally and most likely a Nato member in a decade or so. It adds a friendly buffer country between China/Russia to the EU, that will have missile defense systems. Numerous of China's plans for the country have been ruined and I imagine now Western countries will eventually have their hands all over Ukraine's vast supply of natural resources.