1. #32001
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I live around a lot of Republicans. Some like Trump, some don't, but the thing they have most in common, that I've seen, is their desire to just have people mind their own business. And I'll tell you this, the vast majority that I meet are just humble people trying to provide for their family.

    It's entirely different to hear a persons perspective when you're face to face, which I do (town halls). It's easy for us to not have as much compassion for a person we never see because we're on a computer.
    Them being "humble people just trying to get by and mind their own business" is neither related to nor an excuse for swallowing disinformation and then letting that disinformation determine where they throw their political weight - especially when they throw their political weight behind a party that does nothing but refuse to let people mind their own business.

    The only measure of sympathy they deserve is that extended to anyone that has fallen into a cult or con, which ends when they start using it as a springboard for making life difficult for others whether that's by supporting state violence against minorities or by supporting appeasement of a fascist trying to annex a democratic republic.

    You're not less of a bigot because your bigotry has a sad or sympathetic backstory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    People who are shut up on social media, go to the polls with a big ass grudge, just remember that.
    There's no evidence to suggest this, especially when you consider that the people getting banned off social media for hateful conduct were certainly never going to vote Democrat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #32002
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    But can you maybe understand them doubling-down when your first response to someone, who's just trying to mind their business and provide for their family, is that they're "stupid and obstinate". Cause while you may be against these people, they make up a large percent of the population, and not everyone is as invested into throughly researching US spending and then breaking it down to see the total costs. Cause as said, these are simple people living simple lives and that's how they're gonna stay, especially if they come from an older, different generation.

    Approaching the conversation correctly is important to keep the conversation moving, cause the petty shit immediately stops that from happening and you only turn people immediately against you.
    The problem with 'just trying to mind your own business' is when you actively do things that endanger everyone in the process. If these people are saying, "I think the War in Ukraine is none of our business, and we shouldn't be in it." then they are advocating for the suffering of others even though it actually costs them nothing. Let's say that it just comes from a place of ignorance however, and so you straight up tell them, "No, the War in Ukraine isn't actually hurting us like you think it is. You're not being hurt by this. Anyone telling you that is lying to you." and then they don't accept that, or continue to disagree, then they're being malicious.

    If it's instead just a matter of them wanting it explained to them more clearly, it is possible to break it down into more local terms. It's like if you were voting to ban for immigrants who work at local farms. Those immigrants aren't hurting you, if anything they're helping in a roundabout way by taking jobs no one else wants. Voting to get rid of them will actively hurt your local economy and impact your food prices.

    It's a lot more complicated than "we should mind our own business".

  3. #32003
    Quote Originally Posted by ghotihook View Post
    Covid yes, Ukraine No.
    Russia's invasion of Ukraine did also cause a price-shock in many parts of the world - especially for food and energy prices.

    I'm not talking about the cost of supporting Ukraine, but both sanctions of Russia (and Belarus) and the fact that Ukraine (and Russia in case someone is stupid enough to support them) cannot produce as much as before.

    That is more visible in Europe - but I'm pretty sure it also impacted the US; https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog...362af3.en.html

  4. #32004
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’m not suggesting to just let them think that if you have the opportunity to, not correct or teach them, rather just have a discussion… a conversation.

    The interaction between the two is important, and if you approach it hostile, like so many do, that person defending themselves starts doubling down. And then where did we end up? We didn’t move forward. We’re stuck.
    This is a motte and bailey argument.

    Saying that a civil approach to debate can be an effective method of convincing (some) people is not the same thing as saying that a political position couched in right wing disinformation is understandable or sympathetic. You opened with the latter, and now that people have pointed out how indefensible that argument is you've shifted to the former.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #32005
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Cant put down that Pew Poll. Like it's reading this thread ....

    Also the same group to most likely make up fabulist bull shit on gaming forums.



    Then project themselves as "thee victim".
    Government Affiliated Snark

  6. #32006
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

    You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.
    Covid yes, Ukraine no.
    You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.

  7. #32007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Covid yes, Ukraine no.
    You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I get my news from overseas sources and whatever pops up on Twitter.
    Mystery solved. We did it, Reddit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #32008
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Covid yes, Ukraine no.
    You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.
    Also, voting for Republicans. Because in my county Democrats want to increase develeopment for housing and commerce and ruin my small town.


    Got what they voted for, then projecting blame. This is 98% of conservatE posts.
    Government Affiliated Snark

  9. #32009
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Covid yes, Ukraine no.
    You're falling for some pretty bottom tier misinformation if you think that.
    Some European countries decoupling from Russian energy vassalage certainly drove up a lot of prices in a lot of Europe because of the shift in energy and few months' of struggle in it.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

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  10. #32010
    Pure comedy gold.

    A man who claimed on Chinese TikTok that he was a Russian special forces operative was suspended from the platform on Saturday after it was revealed that he was a man in the Henan province trying to sell products online.

    The content creator, who called himself Baoer Kechatie, had around 400,000 followers on Douyin, China's version of TikTok, before the social media company cracked down on his grift.

    "Some accounts have been posting videos, claiming to be from Russia and soldiers at war. In that time, they spread false information such as 'battlefield videos' and 'battlefield movements' to attract attention and gain traffic," Douyin wrote in a statement on Saturday.

    The TikToker would make wild claims in his videos, saying he was a Chechnyan soldier deployed on the front line in Ukraine and that he even defeated US Marines and secured an M1911 pistol from one of them. To be clear — there are no active-duty US Marines fighting in the war.
    Because US marines still run around with 1911s....

    Gets better...

    "I arrived and went 'psh psh psh psh,'" he said in one video describing the imaginary confrontation, making a smacking motion with his hand.
    https://www.douyin.com/video/7244529989897489698

    Still, the ploy appeared to fool some users. Baoer Kechatie managed to sell some products on his online store, such as milk powder and honey imported from Russia, according to Chinese blogger "A Gossiping Crane," who took screenshots of the TikToker's page.

    State-owned outlet Sixth Tone also reported that multiple social media users bought vodka from the TikToker's account.

    Meanwhile, other people lauded Baoer Kechatie in comments on his videos, writing "Ura," a war cry used by the Russian army.

  11. #32011
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

    You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.
    Factually, Ukraine is a footnote in your nation's global military spending, and likely the most bang for the buck that the Pentagon has gotten in taxpayer dollars in 30 years.

    If gravely misinformed people think otherwise, oh well, what can one do. I'm sure they'll next blame this situation on blue-haired SJW in colleges or whatever else draws their ire the next day.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  12. #32012
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Factually, Ukraine is a footnote in your nation's global military spending, and likely the most bang for the buck that the Pentagon has gotten in taxpayer dollars in 30 years.

    If gravely misinformed people think otherwise, oh well, what can one do. I'm sure they'll next blame this situation on blue-haired SJW in colleges or whatever else draws their ire the next day.
    To add onto what you said, most of the equipment we have sent has already been bought and paid for decades ago. The cost to ship the stuff is most likely cheaper than keeping it running and then getting rid of it when it meets the end of life date. The benefits to America in the long term are far too great for people to pass up. You have your #2 rival having their vast stocks depleted with very few ways to even rebuild it. Ukraine will become an ally and most likely a Nato member in a decade or so. It adds a friendly buffer country between China/Russia to the EU, that will have missile defense systems. Numerous of China's plans for the country have been ruined and I imagine now Western countries will eventually have their hands all over Ukraine's vast supply of natural resources.

  13. #32013
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I know some 70-something year old dude that sits outside the grocery store most of the day, talking to his other elderly friend who live close by. Guy is a stone-cold Trump supporter but he would give the shirt off his back to help anyone.

    I don’t look at him as some evil person. Dude is just misinformed and living his life. He’s going to vote how he wants and me calling be some pos sure isn’t going to change that.

    I don’t even ignore him. I’m pleasant, wish him well and go about my day.
    Good for you. You have very obviously never been in a position where you have been made to argue your basic humanity, or the person opposite you poses a political threat to your welfare and/or very existence.

    Civility and compassion being (somewhat) decent techniques for persuading (some) people does not imply that the moral improvement of reactionaries is more important than protecting the people they target, nor that persuading those people is necessarily the best way to achieve social reform.

    Nor, might I add, that engaging someone with civility imply that you have to find their position sympathetic or understandable. No amount of folksy anecdotes you throw out changes that.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2023-06-20 at 08:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #32014
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Russia's invasion of Ukraine did also cause a price-shock in many parts of the world - especially for food and energy prices.

    I'm not talking about the cost of supporting Ukraine, but both sanctions of Russia (and Belarus) and the fact that Ukraine (and Russia in case someone is stupid enough to support them) cannot produce as much as before.

    That is more visible in Europe - but I'm pretty sure it also impacted the US; https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog...362af3.en.html
    It was, but America have been insulated from the worst of it all the same.

    The US is one of the largest producers of energy on the planet, they’re very capable of seeing their own domestic needs met.
    Last edited by zealo; 2023-06-20 at 08:59 PM.

  15. #32015
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Some European countries decoupling from Russian energy vassalage certainly drove up a lot of prices in a lot of Europe because of the shift in energy and few months' of struggle in it.
    Europe sure, but the U.S. no. If anything we increased exports to Europe making it a boon for us.

  16. #32016
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    To add onto what you said, most of the equipment we have sent has already been bought and paid for decades ago. The cost to ship the stuff is most likely cheaper than keeping it running and then getting rid of it when it meets the end of life date. The benefits to America in the long term are far too great for people to pass up. You have your #2 rival having their vast stocks depleted with very few ways to even rebuild it. Ukraine will become an ally and most likely a Nato member in a decade or so. It adds a friendly buffer country between China/Russia to the EU, that will have missile defense systems. Numerous of China's plans for the country have been ruined and I imagine now Western countries will eventually have their hands all over Ukraine's vast supply of natural resources.
    And on top of all that instead of rotting in warehouses somewhere all those munitions, transports and such serve as highly effective advertisement for US and NATO gear for the world to see.

    America is the single biggest winner of this war by a significant margin. All they have to do to reap the rewards and kneecap their second-biggest rival on the world stage is ship some surplus overseas. That's a bargain if I ever saw one, and has literally no impact on the rent of the average American compared to, say, domestic financial or social policies.

    But that topic is complicated, whereas "the money should stay in the US!!" is simple.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  17. #32017
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Europe sure, but the U.S. no. If anything we increased exports to Europe making it a boon for us.
    Even if some US energy companies benefited from the shift away from Russia, Europe's gas and oil purchace spree drove prices up globally due to sheer volume of it.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

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  18. #32018
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    "Can one fault the non-Russians for being Russophobes? Can one fault the Balts, Poles, Georgians and Ukrainians, in particular, for hating Russia and damning it to hell? Not at all."

    I can. That's where it is messed up. You can't just be paranoid or distrustful of everyone of an ethnicity like that.
    Prove Russian is an ethnicity.

  19. #32019
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    It was, but America have been insulated from the worst of it all the same.
    Yes, the impact is smaller but it is not non-existant.

    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    The US is one of the largest producers of energy on the planet, they’re very capable of seeing their own domestic needs met without importing anything.
    Ask any capitalist what happens with with domestic prices if you can get higher export prices.

  20. #32020
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    Prove Russian is an ethnicity.
    Russian is an ethnicity. There is such a thing as Russian people, culture etc.

    The point being missed here, and the point he missed in the article was that Russophobia is actually not an illogical or unwarranted fear of or hatred of "Russia".

    Russian culture/civilization as defined by the Russians themselves includes elements like glorification of violence, imperialism, a sense of ethnic and national supremacy etc.

    The article briefly explained both the roots of this problem, it's current manifestation and the past and present impact this had on people living around Russians.

    The article asks for westerns to recognize the "Ruski Miir" for what it is, to stop normalizing it or act like it could somehow be appeased with whatever concessions, while also asking Russians themselves to reject the current incarnation of their culture and government and to move past to something better.

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