Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Dontrike]

Everything, where I am, is double the price, to include rent and home prices. $200 groceries every 2 weeks now cost our family $400. Our rent for a small 3-bedroom town house is $2600 (in the country).

You're not going to convince people that COVID and Ukraine didn't largely contribute to that.

"I'm a democrat" They'll scream for the 80th time as they repeat GQP talking points for the 800th time. Neither of those things are the root cause of inflation and the fact you're bringing it up here is either to distract from shit you don't like or to muddy the waters. It's clear that greedy corporations are the main cause of your groceries doubling and the fact you don't know that is worrying.

[Deus Mortis]

And on top of all that instead of rotting in warehouses somewhere all those munitions, transports and such serve as highly effective advertisement for US and NATO gear for the world to see.

America is the single biggest winner of this war by a significant margin. All they have to do to reap the rewards and kneecap their second-biggest rival on the world stage is ship some surplus overseas. That's a bargain if I ever saw one, and has literally no impact on the rent of the average American compared to, say, domestic financial or social policies.

But that topic is complicated, whereas "the money should stay in the US!!" is simple.

And sadly the simple one is an easy to use sound bite and the uneducated will lap it up.

[Dontrike]

I live around a lot of Republicans. Some like Trump, some don't, but the thing they have most in common, that I've seen, is their desire to just have people mind their own business. And I'll tell you this, the vast majority that I meet are just humble people trying to provide for their family.

One, your personal experiences don't disprove the fact that Republicans like Trump at least around 85%+. Two, no they are not just "mind your own business" as we've seen them attacking gays, trans, women, children, and minorities. Three, what the fuck does this have to do with the war again?

People who are shut up on social media, go to the polls with a big ass grudge, just remember that.

Really? Someone not able to use Twitter is what makes them vote for racists and fascists? Fucking really?

[Elder Millennial]

Really? Someone not able to use Twitter is what makes them vote for racists and fascists? Fucking really?

"I want to turn America into a fascist dictatorship and see the world burn, because I've been banned on a forum for calling Obama the N word."

Republican voters circa 2020s.

[YUPPIE]

I have almost no doubt in my mind a part of Putin's plan to turn the war in his favor is Trump being re-elected, of whom will remove all support for Ukraine. Trump's re-election will also incite civil war, protests, and unrest in America.

That's why Zelenksy is keeping track of a timetable for US elections. Ukraine should ideally win before 2024. That's why I wish the war ends soon.

[Azadina]

I have almost no doubt in my mind a part of Putin's plan to turn the war in his favor is Trump being re-elected, of whom will remove all support for Ukraine. Trump's re-election will also incite civil war, protests, and unrest in America.

That's why Zelenksy is keeping track of a timetable for US elections. Ukraine should ideally win before 2024. That's why I wish the war ends soon.

Is that the civil war Kokolumps keeps dreaming of? The one where RuZZia and China help MAGAs exterminate all "libcucks" and other untermenschen?

[YUPPIE]

Wagner is recruiting video gamers, expressing gamers have a supposed passion for violence that would translate to easily to real-life.

[Cynical Asshole]

Wagner is recruiting video gamers, expressing gamers have a supposed passion for violence that would translate to easily to real-life.

Video gamers are also more connected to social media and world events, and are a lot less likely to support Putler.

Rubes and inmates are easy to manipulate because they don't know jackshit, but people who follow the Internet and know what's going on in the world, are much harder to brainwash with propaganda. Not saying there won't be anyone falling for it, hell that Shalcker guy would probably jump right in, but most gamers won't.

[Gabriel]

Ukraine spy chief accuses Russia of 'mining' cooling pond at Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant

They already blew up the dam, so I have no problem believing they mined the nuclear power plant as well.

[Voidism]

I read Winter Blossom as this: you can't ignore the "ignorant" masses or call them name. Doing so will actually make it worse. You have to realize that they are part of society and DO have a democratic voice. The only "solution" would be to remove democracy to let the "right" opinions through only.

That does not mean you approve of such ignorance. Just that maybe instead of worsening the divide and being hostile and thinking/putting people in 2 camps only, try to act like each person is an individual. There are people on the American right who 100 % support Ukraine. There are the opposite too.

If you treat someone like shit, they will NOT change their minds. Quite the opposite. So if you indeed actually want support for Ukraine to increase, I'd suggest not pushing them harder towards the other side. And before you say "well, that's their problem if they 'go to the other side', it's childish!" WELL YES, IT IS. BUT THEY ARE STILL A VOICE IN YOUR DEMOCRACY. They are "childish" AND they have a vote.

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

[zealo]

Wagner is recruiting video gamers, expressing gamers have a supposed passion for violence that would translate to easily to real-life.

No, Yuppie.

What they actually want there is to deliberately recruit people who have no idea what they’re getting themselves into, and by the time it dawns on them it’ll be too late for regret for them.

[alach]

I read Winter Blossom as this: you can't ignore the "ignorant" masses or call them name. Doing so will actually make it worse. You have to realize that they are part of society and DO have a democratic voice. The only "solution" would be to remove democracy to let the "right" opinions through only.

That does not mean you approve of such ignorance. Just that maybe instead of worsening the divide and being hostile and thinking/putting people in 2 camps only, try to act like each person is an individual. There are people on the American right who 100 % support Ukraine. There are the opposite too.

If you treat someone like shit, they will NOT change their minds. Quite the opposite. So if you indeed actually want support for Ukraine to increase, I'd suggest not pushing them harder towards the other side. And before you say "well, that's their problem if they 'go to the other side', it's childish!" WELL YES, IT IS. BUT THEY ARE STILL A VOICE IN YOUR DEMOCRACY. They are "childish" AND they have a vote.

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

Well said.

I'd also like to point out to those folks that the reason their groceries are high is becaue of Putin, not Ukraine. Its not a secret markets and business hate uncertainity and what Russia has done has flipped the global order and trade upside down, just as we were coming out of a pandemic. Of course invading another neighbouring country is always wrong, but he really took one of the worst times to do it.
I'd also politely remind them that inflation is global, and the blame for the cause of it can't be put on just one person or reason. How each country is dealing with it is another matter.

[Elder Millennial]

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

You mean they lost a loved one because they spent the last 40 years dismantling institutions? They lost a job because they spent the last 40 years dismantling the institutions that would have protected those jobs?

Here's the thing...those people actually are in fact bad people. They might THINK they are not, but they are in fact bad people.

Ignorance is not a defense.

"Your Honor, I didn't know murder was illegal" is not a defense even if you can somehow magically prove that you in fact didn't know that.

Nothing conservatives/MAGA types do makes any sense. It's all based on vibes and feels, mostly ones derived from the yuck factor.

Gays? Yuck. Immigrants? Yuck. Vaccines? Yuck. Helping poor people? Yuck. Minorities? Yuck. Etc.

They never ask themselves why, nor do they care to know, and if you try to explain something they'll first insult you, then proceed to stick their heads into the ground, then escalate to threaten you with violence.

Fortunately they aren't half the population, but rather about. 35 to 40 of it. And they must be ridiculed and attacked, because there's that 15 or 20 in the middle who must understand that these people are loons. They are "misguided" or "good people who believe some silly things", no these people are fucking vile.

[Mekh]

You mean they lost a loved one because they spent the last 40 years dismantling institutions? They lost a job because they spent the last 40 years dismantling the institutions that would have protected those jobs?

Here's the thing...those people actually are in fact bad people. They might THINK they are not, but they are in fact bad people.

Ignorance is not a defense.

"Your Honor, I didn't know murder was illegal" is not a defense even if you can somehow magically prove that you in fact didn't know that.

Nothing conservatives/MAGA types do makes any sense. It's all based on vibes and feels, mostly ones derived from the yuck factor.

Gays? Yuck. Immigrants? Yuck. Vaccines? Yuck. Helping poor people? Yuck. Minorities? Yuck. Etc.

They never ask themselves why, nor do they care to know, and if you try to explain something they'll first insult you, then proceed to stick their heads into the ground, then escalate to threaten you with violence.

Fortunately they aren't half the population, but rather about. 35 to 40 of it. And they must be ridiculed and attacked, because there's that 15 or 20 in the middle who must understand that these people are loons. They are "misguided" or "good people who believe some silly things", no these people are fucking vile.

Not just is all of that true, the outreach thing doesn't work. Last year I had to cut out a friend. Friend as in known him for years, seen photos of all his nephews. It was back around the Supreme Court RvW leak. Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access, he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

So at some point where way over half our group was starting to feel extremely uncomfortable around him and the policies he seemed to endorse with silence (and him trying to feel shunned about it), I took him aside, explained the concerns and fears of our way over 50% female and/or LGBTQ friend group and he did the only sensible thing:

He doubled down. It's the Dems' fault. They are moving left all the time! (Hi Winter Blossom!) When I asked him for examples he said CRT. When I asked him to define CRT, he couldn't. I asked him if he maybe wants to read up in things before having an opinion, he got defensive. So the circle voted with a heavy heart to kick him out.

A year later, for the anniversary of the whole thing, I figured the GOP had gone far enough from hugely problematic to Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain evil in its rhetoric and proposed bills, I could ask him if he still felt the same, maybe admit some fault even. Deafening silence. Nothing. Not a peep.

And he was one of those guys you'd probably tentatively call "one of the good ones". There's probably a whole lot more under this already ridiculously low bar.

EDIT: also to bring this back on topic: the decent people are as little responsible for MAGAts going full fash because we didn't drip enough honey in their ears, as Ukraine and NATO are responsible for Putin also deciding to go full fash. The reason people in the US want to stop support for Ukraine is their shared desire for full fash.

[Dontrike]

I read Winter Blossom as this: you can't ignore the "ignorant" masses or call them name. Doing so will actually make it worse. You have to realize that they are part of society and DO have a democratic voice. The only "solution" would be to remove democracy to let the "right" opinions through only.

That does not mean you approve of such ignorance. Just that maybe instead of worsening the divide and being hostile and thinking/putting people in 2 camps only, try to act like each person is an individual. There are people on the American right who 100 % support Ukraine. There are the opposite too.

If you treat someone like shit, they will NOT change their minds. Quite the opposite. So if you indeed actually want support for Ukraine to increase, I'd suggest not pushing them harder towards the other side. And before you say "well, that's their problem if they 'go to the other side', it's childish!" WELL YES, IT IS. BUT THEY ARE STILL A VOICE IN YOUR DEMOCRACY. They are "childish" AND they have a vote.

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

When only one is reaching across the table for compromise while the other is shitting on it there isn't anything more you can do. If someone will not consider being better then the divide will always be huge, whether you call them names or not.

You don't have to tolerate intolerance and the centrist's "just get along" hippy bullshit is at best incredibly naive and at worse actively harmful to the ones being abused.

[Cynical Asshole]

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

When only one is reaching across the table for compromise while the other is shitting on it there isn't anything more you can do. If someone will not consider being better then the divide will always be huge, whether you call them names or not.

You don't have to tolerate intolerance and the centrist's "just get along" hippy bullshit is at best incredibly naive and at worse actively harmful to the ones being abused.

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

I swear people in 1st world countries, especially America, are so fucking BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS that they want conflicts, they want something to do that they haven't done before.

Reminds me of that Babylon 5 episode where the Drazi regularly went to planetary-wide civil wars over the colours. But the Drazi are supposed to be the Orcs of that Universe, so it's natural for them.

[Mekh]

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

I swear people in 1st world countries, especially America, are so fucking BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS that they want conflicts, they want something to do that they haven't done before.

Reminds me of that Babylon 5 episode where the Drazi regularly went to planetary-wide civil wars over the colours. But the Drazi are supposed to be the Orcs of that Universe, so it's natural for them.

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

[Cynical Asshole]

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

Yes, every side thinks their cause is the most noble and important in history. Doesn't mean that they way they see it is the correct and accurate way.

[Mekh]

Yes, every side thinks their cause is the most noble and important in history. Doesn't mean that they way they see it is the correct and accurate way.

By all means, please spell out what you think the causes of BoTh SiDeS(!) are.

[Dontrike]

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

What cereal box 3D glasses did you use to see that?

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

Yeah the politics of *checks notes* one side wants to kill and/or make the lives of gays, trans, women, children, and minorities worse. You're right, it's just politics. You're smart.