Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Elder Millennial]

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

You mean they lost a loved one because they spent the last 40 years dismantling institutions? They lost a job because they spent the last 40 years dismantling the institutions that would have protected those jobs?

Here's the thing...those people actually are in fact bad people. They might THINK they are not, but they are in fact bad people.

Ignorance is not a defense.

"Your Honor, I didn't know murder was illegal" is not a defense even if you can somehow magically prove that you in fact didn't know that.

Nothing conservatives/MAGA types do makes any sense. It's all based on vibes and feels, mostly ones derived from the yuck factor.

Gays? Yuck. Immigrants? Yuck. Vaccines? Yuck. Helping poor people? Yuck. Minorities? Yuck. Etc.

They never ask themselves why, nor do they care to know, and if you try to explain something they'll first insult you, then proceed to stick their heads into the ground, then escalate to threaten you with violence.

Fortunately they aren't half the population, but rather about. 35 to 40 of it. And they must be ridiculed and attacked, because there's that 15 or 20 in the middle who must understand that these people are loons. They are "misguided" or "good people who believe some silly things", no these people are fucking vile.

[Mekh]

You mean they lost a loved one because they spent the last 40 years dismantling institutions? They lost a job because they spent the last 40 years dismantling the institutions that would have protected those jobs?

Here's the thing...those people actually are in fact bad people. They might THINK they are not, but they are in fact bad people.

Ignorance is not a defense.

"Your Honor, I didn't know murder was illegal" is not a defense even if you can somehow magically prove that you in fact didn't know that.

Nothing conservatives/MAGA types do makes any sense. It's all based on vibes and feels, mostly ones derived from the yuck factor.

Gays? Yuck. Immigrants? Yuck. Vaccines? Yuck. Helping poor people? Yuck. Minorities? Yuck. Etc.

They never ask themselves why, nor do they care to know, and if you try to explain something they'll first insult you, then proceed to stick their heads into the ground, then escalate to threaten you with violence.

Fortunately they aren't half the population, but rather about. 35 to 40 of it. And they must be ridiculed and attacked, because there's that 15 or 20 in the middle who must understand that these people are loons. They are "misguided" or "good people who believe some silly things", no these people are fucking vile.

Not just is all of that true, the outreach thing doesn't work. Last year I had to cut out a friend. Friend as in known him for years, seen photos of all his nephews. It was back around the Supreme Court RvW leak. Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access, he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

So at some point where way over half our group was starting to feel extremely uncomfortable around him and the policies he seemed to endorse with silence (and him trying to feel shunned about it), I took him aside, explained the concerns and fears of our way over 50% female and/or LGBTQ friend group and he did the only sensible thing:

He doubled down. It's the Dems' fault. They are moving left all the time! (Hi Winter Blossom!) When I asked him for examples he said CRT. When I asked him to define CRT, he couldn't. I asked him if he maybe wants to read up in things before having an opinion, he got defensive. So the circle voted with a heavy heart to kick him out.

A year later, for the anniversary of the whole thing, I figured the GOP had gone far enough from hugely problematic to Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain evil in its rhetoric and proposed bills, I could ask him if he still felt the same, maybe admit some fault even. Deafening silence. Nothing. Not a peep.

And he was one of those guys you'd probably tentatively call "one of the good ones". There's probably a whole lot more under this already ridiculously low bar.

EDIT: also to bring this back on topic: the decent people are as little responsible for MAGAts going full fash because we didn't drip enough honey in their ears, as Ukraine and NATO are responsible for Putin also deciding to go full fash. The reason people in the US want to stop support for Ukraine is their shared desire for full fash.

[Dontrike]

I read Winter Blossom as this: you can't ignore the "ignorant" masses or call them name. Doing so will actually make it worse. You have to realize that they are part of society and DO have a democratic voice. The only "solution" would be to remove democracy to let the "right" opinions through only.

That does not mean you approve of such ignorance. Just that maybe instead of worsening the divide and being hostile and thinking/putting people in 2 camps only, try to act like each person is an individual. There are people on the American right who 100 % support Ukraine. There are the opposite too.

If you treat someone like shit, they will NOT change their minds. Quite the opposite. So if you indeed actually want support for Ukraine to increase, I'd suggest not pushing them harder towards the other side. And before you say "well, that's their problem if they 'go to the other side', it's childish!" WELL YES, IT IS. BUT THEY ARE STILL A VOICE IN YOUR DEMOCRACY. They are "childish" AND they have a vote.

Instead of "omg I can't even... ah well, GOPTARDS!!!!" you can try to see why they got there. They are not evil. They just lack trust in institutions. Sometimes for very good reason (maybe their loved one was killed as a result of institutional failure, they lost their jobs because of some new law or something... I dunno). AGAIN, I'm not saying I agree or like those opinions.

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

When only one is reaching across the table for compromise while the other is shitting on it there isn't anything more you can do. If someone will not consider being better then the divide will always be huge, whether you call them names or not.

You don't have to tolerate intolerance and the centrist's "just get along" hippy bullshit is at best incredibly naive and at worse actively harmful to the ones being abused.

[Cynical Asshole]

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

When only one is reaching across the table for compromise while the other is shitting on it there isn't anything more you can do. If someone will not consider being better then the divide will always be huge, whether you call them names or not.

You don't have to tolerate intolerance and the centrist's "just get along" hippy bullshit is at best incredibly naive and at worse actively harmful to the ones being abused.

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

I swear people in 1st world countries, especially America, are so fucking BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS that they want conflicts, they want something to do that they haven't done before.

Reminds me of that Babylon 5 episode where the Drazi regularly went to planetary-wide civil wars over the colours. But the Drazi are supposed to be the Orcs of that Universe, so it's natural for them.

[Mekh]

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

I swear people in 1st world countries, especially America, are so fucking BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS that they want conflicts, they want something to do that they haven't done before.

Reminds me of that Babylon 5 episode where the Drazi regularly went to planetary-wide civil wars over the colours. But the Drazi are supposed to be the Orcs of that Universe, so it's natural for them.

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

[Cynical Asshole]

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

Yes, every side thinks their cause is the most noble and important in history. Doesn't mean that they way they see it is the correct and accurate way.

[Mekh]

Yes, every side thinks their cause is the most noble and important in history. Doesn't mean that they way they see it is the correct and accurate way.

By all means, please spell out what you think the causes of BoTh SiDeS(!) are.

[Dontrike]

What an L take.

So basically you're just saying "Let's have that civil war already, and whoever survives can be the dominant force, because we just can't compromise and live together like this."

What cereal box 3D glasses did you use to see that?

And the reason for this divide being just politics. Not food shortages, not abuse of power by the government and upper class, not generalised civil conflicts, just fucking politics and opinions, nothing that sane people would care about.

Yeah the politics of *checks notes* one side wants to kill and/or make the lives of gays, trans, women, children, and minorities worse. You're right, it's just politics. You're smart.

[The Stormbringer]

The problem with "Don't increase the divide" is that it's the same idea of people going through abusive relationships. You can't nice your way through someone's insane amount of ignorance and shitty attitude, it can't be done. You being nice to your abusive parent won't suddenly make them stop beating you, you being nice to the racists won't suddenly make them stop wanting you dead.

Whaaat?! But all those Lifetime movies told me that they were just confused, misinformed, had a rough exterior, were traumatized, etcetera, and secretly have a heart of gold! If I'm nice enough to them, they'll realize what they're doing and change their ways!

[Voidism]

I like how you equate human rights to the colour of a scarf. Very serious take.

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

_ _

That said, my whole point with what I wrote is this: yes, you can keep on about how everyone who's not pro everything x is evil (same goes for MAGA folks too btw, and I do engage them but this forum is not exactly full of them) and deny their humanity but they do have a voice. Regardless of what you think of them, their voices still count. In fact, I often think it's not really the issues they care about. It's to give the institutions a "fuck you!" - Trump was incredibly weak as a president.

So if you are serious about wanting to increase support to Ukraine you need to put aside your internal issues when on threads that are about other countries and see that you do have people on the right who want to support Ukraine. In fact, only a minority in your congress and senate are against it on the right.

[Elegiac]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

Ok, Blaire White.

"One can be pro-trans rights but also still believe in medical gatekeeping on the basis of shit that only happens in extreme cases and is in no way the norm."

That said, my whole point with what I wrote is this: yes, you can keep on about how everyone who's not pro everything x is evil (same goes for MAGA folks too btw, and I do engage them but this forum is not exactly full of them) and deny their humanity but they do have a voice. Regardless of what you think of them, their voices still count. In fact, I often think it's not really the issues they care about. It's to give the institutions a "fuck you!" - Trump was incredibly weak as a president.

This is just massively ignorant of the way conservatism works in general, but also specifically how it works in the US.

[Gabriel]

June 20 (Reuters) - The Pentagon found it had overestimated the amount of funding for ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by $6.2 billion due to an accounting error, a spokesperson said on Tuesday, more than double the amount previously disclosed.

The value of the accounting error was revised up from the $3 billion that was first reported by Reuters in May, the result of assigning a higher-than-warranted value on U.S. weaponry shipped to Ukraine.

Additional funding was uncovered as Pentagon officials researched the situation more thoroughly and clarified protocols for valuing equipment based on Financial Management Regulation and Department of Defense policy, Pentagon deputy press secretary Sabrina Singh said.

Looks like US found some pocket change under the sofa cushions to give for Ukraine.

[Elegiac]

This is exactly how I feel but you were braver than me to say it. It's why, when I visit my parents overseas, these issues, as you said, are not as controversial and I feel I can just relax so much more over there.

"These issues" i.e. "my opinions."

And I wonder for what possible reason your opinions could be considered controversial.

[Mekh]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.

[and further nonsense]

Considering none of that shit happens, it's been proven that none of that shit happens and you know none of that shit happens, I'm just gonna report for trolling and forbidden topics I guess.

[Kallisto]

Oh lord...
I'm going to use my transition as a political tool here:

My trans rights do not extend over children's rights. My rights are not "violated" just because we do not cut out the breasts of 13 year old girls or not give hormones to fully healthy kids.
That's what's so messed up. This hiding behind "human rights" bs. One can be pro trans rights but also pro intactness of kids until they can drink, go to war and decide to marry. AKA kid's rights.
My trans rights do not go away just because we acknowledge the reality of the two sexes.

Just as an example of what I have seen some Americans go on about. Something that's not at all controversial to say in my country, on the left. BY US.

I'll take things that do not happen for $5000

As a trans person here's what me and most of us want for kids. For those who are trans (Yes we fucking know or at least suspect by the time we're starting puberty.) to be able to receive a medication that has been in use since before 90% of the forums were born called puberty blockers. That are entirely reversible if a child who thinks they're trans realises that they are not. Then when they become an adult, if they're still on the medication (you know around 18) they can go on HRT and not have to go through a puberty that is terrifying, harmful and distressing. Also we want for kids to be accepted for who they are and make sure that they're in environments where they are safe.

[Elder Millennial]

June 20 (Reuters) - The Pentagon found it had overestimated the amount of funding for ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by $6.2 billion due to an accounting error, a spokesperson said on Tuesday, more than double the amount previously disclosed.

The value of the accounting error was revised up from the $3 billion that was first reported by Reuters in May, the result of assigning a higher-than-warranted value on U.S. weaponry shipped to Ukraine.

Additional funding was uncovered as Pentagon officials researched the situation more thoroughly and clarified protocols for valuing equipment based on Financial Management Regulation and Department of Defense policy, Pentagon deputy press secretary Sabrina Singh said.

Looks like US found some pocket change under the sofa cushions to give for Ukraine.

When it comes to the Pentagon 6.2 billion is literally a rounding error. They lost more on misplaced triple A batteries and office supplies than they have given Ukraine.

[Voidism]

This is exactly how I feel but you were braver than me to say it. It's why, when I visit my parents overseas, these issues, as you said, are not as controversial and I feel I can just relax so much more over there.

That's how most sane people feel. Loud mouths frothing on the internet is fortunately not the norm IRL. They will lie, cheat and try to pressure folks to accept their views.
They are willing to sacrifice support for Ukraine for it. They are unable to think beyond themselves, beyond America, funnily enough. That's how deeply immoral they are.

Note how they try to make you feel small, part of the minority. Kinda like how putin's propaganda works - making people too afraid to say anything because everyone think everyone else thinks one thing. "Everyone thinks" "no one thinks that" "that never happens!" - without actually arguing anything. Sometimes they do send some vague data captured 10 years ago on the internet, hidden behind a veil of professionalism. That's how abusers work. "This is x rights, or else!" "STEP IN LINE"

The same is true for the "MAGA" crowd. But they are fortunately not here (mostly). They too want to steal people's voices - people who are disenfranchised for many reasons. They want to be the sole right wing voice. These sides feed off of the people, and work in symbiosis together.

Look how easily they reacted, so quickly. So forcefully. They do NOT like people stepping out of line. Fortunately I have gotten through 15 years of psychiatric care and I'm too robust to be heckled. :P

I can imagine teens on the internet, with all hormones and wanting to fit in, falling for this easily.

And this brings me back to Ukraine: there are real people dying there. I think many, regardless of if you're right wing or left wing, can see that making Ukraine win is of the highest priority. Here's a good piece by a right wing Ukraine supporter, criticizing Jordan Peterson.

[qwerty123456]

Not just is all of that true, the outreach thing doesn't work. Last year I had to cut out a friend. Friend as in known him for years, seen photos of all his nephews. It was back around the Supreme Court RvW leak. Whenever the friend group's discussion topic started to move un the direction of "politics", by which I mean our gay friend in a red state expressing concerns about the continues recognition of his marriage or one of the ladies explaining how she would be dead without abortion access, he'd clam up and go "can't we all just play video games!?"

So at some point where way over half our group was starting to feel extremely uncomfortable around him and the policies he seemed to endorse with silence (and him trying to feel shunned about it), I took him aside, explained the concerns and fears of our way over 50% female and/or LGBTQ friend group and he did the only sensible thing:

He doubled down. It's the Dems' fault. They are moving left all the time! (Hi Winter Blossom!) When I asked him for examples he said CRT. When I asked him to define CRT, he couldn't. I asked him if he maybe wants to read up in things before having an opinion, he got defensive. So the circle voted with a heavy heart to kick him out.

A year later, for the anniversary of the whole thing, I figured the GOP had gone far enough from hugely problematic to Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain evil in its rhetoric and proposed bills, I could ask him if he still felt the same, maybe admit some fault even. Deafening silence. Nothing. Not a peep.

And he was one of those guys you'd probably tentatively call "one of the good ones". There's probably a whole lot more under this already ridiculously low bar.

EDIT: also to bring this back on topic: the decent people are as little responsible for MAGAts going full fash because we didn't drip enough honey in their ears, as Ukraine and NATO are responsible for Putin also deciding to go full fash. The reason people in the US want to stop support for Ukraine is their shared desire for full fash.

Except it does work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

You also literally have Russians fighting for the Ukrainians atm because when the Ukrainians captured them they weren't total dicks to them and showed them what Russia told them were lies. You think that if the did the raping and torture that the Russians are doing they would have gotten any of the Russians to side with them? NO it would have made the Russians even worse than they are because now they have real justifications.

You do realize you did the opposite of outreach right? You continued to bring up "politics"( in your words) around them when they were clearly uncomfortable with it and kept pushing them until they got defensive and then you felt the need to attack them and eventually kick them out of the group. Then a year later you taunted the guy by trying to have him admit he was wrong since his "side" went even more crazy. Even if your "politics" are "correct"/morally right You molded that guy into a Maga with your actions(atleast from what you have stated).

[Mekh]

You do realize you did the opposite of outreach right? You continued to bring up "politics"( in your words) around them when they were clearly uncomfortable with it and kept pushing them until they got defensive and then you felt the need to attack them and eventually kick them out of the group. Then a year later you taunted the guy by trying to have him admit he was wrong since his "side" went even more crazy. Even if your "politics" are "correct"/morally right You molded that guy into a Maga with your actions(atleast from what you have stated).

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

[qwerty123456]

The LGBTQ people in our circle of friends expressing fear for their lives is not "bringing up politics". Him getting defensive over that really told us enough and we should have acted sooner if anything.

Was he ok with being friends with your LGBTQ friends? Or did he want them kicked out from the start? You are in denial of your responsibility. And the fact you had to clip that part and ignore the other part instead of acknowledging that you were wrong shows you "have to be right".